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churchward

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churchward last won the day on May 12

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About churchward

  • Birthday 04/11/58

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    Clwyd

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  1. Brexit 2017

    Your welcome I'm sure. It is one form of democracy in action a referendum on the outcome would be another just not as likely to happen. However, it is very unlikely that a vote will reject a deal in parliament. There will be enough conservative and labour MPs with or without the DUP to make sure it is accepted. Just in the same way as the vote for triggering article 50.
  2. Brexit 2017

    The issue is taxing the minds of industry watchers and economists as to why there is not upward pressure on wages presently. The government wage subsidies may well be contributing to that but unlikely to be the sole reason. Mind you when it was proposed to remove or reduce the subsidies the government was heavily criticised and the proposals shelved. Whoever may be in power post Brexit a key challenge for them is to deliver for people (the lower paid especially) some living standard improvement for sure and an employment market that pays more of a living wage and fair share of the economy rather than what we have now.
  3. Brexit 2017

    Yes that true but of course as we see nowadays a year on from the referendum no matter who moans it doesn't change who voted which option and teh overall result.
  4. Brexit 2017

    I have more faith in the voters. It should be a simple choice and what each option meant. I am sure of curse there will be scope for spin and interpretation but that is politics for you. I doubt it is a scenario that has much chance of being real. The most likely outcome at this point looks like we are leaving with what ever deal is struck and there will be no vote other than a vote in parliament on it.
  5. Brexit 2017

    I think it would only have any real meaning if a vote on the deal was part of the deal itself i.e. the deal is that if it is approved then we leave if it isn't (it may have to be a 3 option vote) we either leave with no deal (not good in my view) or we call the whole thing off and stay in the EU.
  6. Brexit 2017

    Not really. They did indeed lose their majority but to a party also with a manifesto commitment to Brexit so how was that a protest against Brexit? I do not like the DUP or what they stand for either but the process gone through is part of our democracy and parliamentary system. Although I don't like them the DUP MPs were also voted for by a democratic system. In any case as mentioned above if Labour had won (if you recall they did actually lose the election even though doing much better than expected) we would still be going through the Brexit process.
  7. Brexit 2017

    So what? The point you are ignoring is that it was a democratic vote and since the referendum we have had an election where both major national parties used a manifesto with a commitment to Brexit even with a reduced majority the conservatives still got the most seats. Maybe it will be impossible as yet we do not know. These kind of agreements seem to usually come together at the last minute. I have already said what the mechanism could be for a second vote twice reread my posts.
  8. Brexit 2017

    No I doubt presently there is any majority force of opinion for another referendum. What I was saying is that IF the 2016 referendum was to be overturned it should only be via another referendum as the best democratic means. My point also was that as much as some people do not like Brexit there was an opportunity to do something at the election about it. This was not taken and in the main there was little appetite for a changing of the public mind on Brexit. Even though the Conservatives lost seats they are still in power on a pro Brexit manifesto and the Nearest rival the labour party also campaigned with a manifesto of implementing Brexit. The only real national party that campaigned for an alternative to Brexit and another referendum was the Lib Dems and they did not attract any real protest vote. Therefore democracy has been served twice for Brexit and although personally I voted remain and would prefer to stay in the EU this is not what the majority of people want and so I am now more interested in getting the best possible deal for leaving.
  9. Brexit 2017

    We had a general election if you recall just a short while ago. Both major parties (conservative and labour) campaigned with a commitment to complete Brexit in this parliament term. So it did not matter who won in terms of Brexit happening. I assume you would consider that democracy too. The lib Dems were the only national party to really campaign with a manifesto that softened Brexit and even opposed but attracted little interest with the voters. regardless of the outcome in terms of majority there is a mandate to carry on with Brexit that is a fact. You are keen to tell me what is democracy but seem to want to ignore democracy when it hasn't gone your way. May did not fail other than she did not get a majority (although bad enough for her) she did form a government and her party in power on a ticket of completing Brexit. It is true that if we had another election before Brexit occurred a party could run a campaign on the basis of remaining in the EU and rejecting the referendum result of course. But given that is unlikely the only real alternative and I think better democratic solution would be to hold another referendum when the terms of the deal are known so we could decide at that point to jump or pull away from the final Brexit act rather like the Lib Dems were proposing in fact. Assuming of course we could arrange with the EU for that to be possible. A referendum chose to start this process and if there was a mechanism to do so the most democratic way of undoing it would be to hold another referendum.
  10. Brexit 2017

    Yes it could be decided to do that but in my view not without a rerun of the referendum in effect. The electorate voted for leave there is no escaping that fact. So for it to be over turned by anything else other than a new referendum would be unacceptable. Assuming the UK must leave there is no sensible alternative to find the best solution possible. To frustrate and ruin the efforts to get a good deal will not help anyone, whether you voted remain or leave. It may be obvious to you and others of course but I have seen no real reason or evidence in surveys that says a new referendum would change the 2016 outcome. Some people have changed their minds from how they voted but it would seem to be in fairly equal numbers both ways so in effect cancelling each other out.
  11. Brexit 2017

    Indeed so it can be very useful sometimes to come at a problem from a different direction. It is also useful in some circumstances to propose something that would be totally unacceptable to some people and then when idea has been rejected come back with a different solution (that one may have wanted all along) that now seems OK compared to what was on offer. But my point all along has been that there has to be a will to find a solution on all sides to make it work as no matter what is proposed reasons could be dreamed up why it won't work if ones intention is to frustrate and prevent a change. It is also true that there are solutions to be found it is not easy but it is not even close to impossible there are other countries with land borders that deal with situations like this. The USA / Canada border is quite flexible for example with US and Canadian citizens able to cross daily for work etc. quite freely.
  12. Brexit 2017

    I did not say it was easy quite the reverse in fact. I am not looking for a solution for the general Irish issue but one of an open border post Brexit. Why would you poo poo other proposals as unacceptable but think that a united Ireland would be the preferred solution? I agree it is a possible solution as I stated originally above but probably will create more problems than answers. I think your mates in the Orange order you were keen to speak for would be incensed. A remain vote in NI has nothing to do with the Irish question any more than a remain vote in Scotland was a vote for independence as Ms Fish discovered at the general election.
  13. Brexit 2017

    None of it is easy it is just that people need to change from looking for reasons why it won't work to looking for solutions that do work.
  14. Brexit 2017

    Not necessarily there are other processes but compromises may have to be made and you would then have the passport check in NI if that was going to be a problem.
  15. Brexit 2017

    Yes that is possible or it could be left that anyone travelling onto the UK mainland without a British passport would be checked at a passport control on the UK mainland. This is the point these things can be done and some of it is already done now as we were not part of the EU Schengen agreement anyway, not all of it is politically easy by any means but there are means to achieving an open border with Eire but leave the EU. For the sake of both countries and especially NI it is essential a solution is implemented that allows free movement of people working across the borders and trade with Eire is as easy as possible.
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