DandV
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Posts posted by DandV
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Just a couple of days ago in 2013. 11th? when we took delivery of our boat isolated by a badly broken lock from the rest of the canal system.
About a week later much of the Aylesbury Basin, 22 boats were evacuated by road to Willowbridge.
The rest of the Canal Society boats moved themselves up to the new Circus Field Basin about 4 months later
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27 minutes ago, fanshaft said:
In view of the law mentioned by Mac (of which I was unaware) presumably the enclosed arrangement per Claytons and their larger brethren counted as tanks. It didn't stop Mattys from running with phosphorous waste in open holds!
The Severn tankers were operated by a variety of companies but the best known were Harkers and Bowker and King.
In shipping, any enclosed space, regardless of shape, dedicated for the storage of liquids was designated as a tank.
So big oil tankers had both fore and aft, and transverse bulkheads to divide the below deck space into a number of tanks.
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The remaining boats, and the photographs of them are undoubted very valuable, and hopefully durable relics, but are only one dimension.
This thread has been valuable to me in adding a lot to, of another dimension, one not so durable, that of the context. Why and what?
And even some about about that third dimension, the dimension that is increasingly uncomfortably for many of us, not so durable.
The people involved, and their lives. The who.
So thanks everbody who has contributed in making this thread so interesting to me.
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And what bought this thread about
In 2015 on the Lower Peak Canal we came across Spey sprawled across the canal, whilst her crew attempted a delicate salvage operation.
A "very nasty branch" had snatched the steerer's very expensive spectacles off his nose and into the canal.
In spite of valiant efforts by her crew, there they probably remain.
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Thanks for all of the replies. It is interesting that this trade, and the boats, and that horsepower survived as late as they did.
Presumably the fuel oil carried was light fuel oil, used as boiler fuel, where any residual contamination from previous coal tar carriage would be irrelevant, whereas internal combustion engines might be a little more fussy.
Were there any other narrowboats built for special cargoes?
Other then the two powered pontoon like boats used in Stoke on Trent for carting partly fired pottery between kilns?
I saw one of them being loaded whilst on a canal side walk there in the mid 1970's and was disappointed in that it looked nothing like the picturesque working boats I had seen in all the romantic pictures that had made it around to this side of the world.
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Just thinking back.
UK and NZ standard above ground oil and fuel tanks, at the time would have been 6ft and 8ft standard diameters with 6ft strakes on the 6ft diameter tanks and 8ft on the 8ft diameter tanks.
So nominally 1000 imp gallons per 6ft length. I think 4000 gallons,/ 24ft long was the normal max size for that diameter. But the 1 2 & 3 thousand gallon tanks were much more numerous. Steel underground tanks were the same dimensions. And even small vertical tanks.
So over 4ton per 6ft tank length. These tanks would be an economical fit in a 7ft wide boat. And repurposed second hand tanks would have been numerous.
A colleague of mine was persuaded to provide a similar, but later metric sized tank to convey fuel as deck cargo on an Antarctic supply ship for a private expedition. It did not go well when a big wave hit and split the tank.
You can see stability, being an issue with the centre of gravity of a full tank being about 3ft 6" above the bottom of the
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I was never fond of the smell of petroleum products, but this rose to an intense dislike, when, in my job, they indicated their presence in places they definitely should not have been.
First you had to find the escape point, and ascertain how much had gone AWOL, Then engage with alls sorts of others, you really didn't want to deal with.
The emergency services, clients, councils, and your highers ups. Start the clean up, which could be a major, And somewhere in all this fix it, and return service.
And later participate in "The Investigation"
1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:Not narrowboats, but there is still oil traffic on the UK canals from Hull to Rotherham.
This is an old photo (2012) and not one of the current boats. Heading back empty through Aldwarke lock, after unloading.
We had to be aware of where the Humber Princess actually was, when we shared her territory in 2015, as she shuttled backwards and forwards delivering lube base oil from port storage in Hull up to the blending plant in Rotheham. In that time she made two return trips.
Was impressed the way she delivered her, far from young, deckhand, from off the fore deck, onto the lock wing wall at Eastward Lock to set the lock where she entered, prior to the CART team arriving to take over.
Certainly would not have wanted to encounter her on the bends on the river near the Conisbrough Viaduct.
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8 minutes ago, BEngo said:
The Thomas Clayton (Oldbury ) fleet traded in gas works by-products to tar distilleries. Since a good gas works wasted nowt, or less, cargoes ranged from ammonia water to crude tar. All theee were further refined at the tar distilleries. There was one in Banbury, one at the foot of the Crow in Oldbury, adjacent to Claytons base and another at Calf Heath.
Crude tar, once refined, gave a range of products from tar varnish ( like varnish but black), through road tar to solid at room temperature bitumen.
The Ellesmere Port to Aldridge run was operated for Duckhams, but was shipping lubricating oil for blending rather than diesel. The cargo was in cylindrical tanks installed in ex GU and FMC boats. I think Midland Canal Transport were the carrier. At least one boat capsized during loading or unloading. There are pictures in, IIRC, the excellent Phillip Weaver photo book published by the h/ HNB(O)C.
N
Thanks for that.
Lube oil in simple tanks makes sense. Specially built boats didn't seem to make sense.
And now I know how great grandmother's Wright's Coal Tar Soap was really just a way of maximising the yield from a toxic by product of coal gas production! I remember it smelt vile compared to fragrant Lux.
Don
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As an ex oil company engineer and somebody also interested in the commercial operation of narrowboats in latter years my interest has been raised by tanker narrowboats.
I have seen Spey a tar tanker a few times, which I understand was one of a fleet taking coal tar away from coal gas manufacturing plants to where?
Was coal tar a bitumen substitute for roading? I know bitumen always needs to be transported hot, so presumably coat tar was more liquid at normal UK temperatures.
I am also aware, probably from this site, that diesel fuel used to be transported from refineries adjacent to Port Ellismere down to the Midlands by tanker narrowboat until fairly late in commercial trade by narrowboat. Presumably by boats especially constructed for this trade.
Any body know their tank configuration and capacity?
Were only motors used, or were working pairs of boats used?
When did this trade cease? and where in the Midlands were the discharge points for further distribution by road?
Was only diesel fuel carried or also heavy fuel oil, or even motor spirit?
I look forward to replies.
Don
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7 hours ago, bizzard said:
The Waverley was moored on the Thames embankment for a while. In the early 1980's I nearly went on a cruise on it with Hastings Lil. It was doing round the coast cruises. We waited on Hastings pier for it but because of a strong swell in the channel it couldn't get alongside, bumped the pier a couple of times then steamed away. We went to the pub instead. ,
My first sighting of the Waverly was that my father was on the list for first loans of the "Amateur Photographer" magazine from our local library.
And their camera reviews, in the 1960's had comparitive photographs of the old ladies, including Discovery and Waverly, against the embankment.
So an already familiar view when I first saw it for real in the 1970's. Very much depleted when I next saw it in the early 90's
I am so glad that the Waverly was restored to being operational. Old dead boats are a bit sad. But old boats still doing what they were built to do are simply stunning.
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On 22/03/2024 at 09:56, Stroudwater1 said:
It ain’t broke as far as I can see, so it doesn’t need fixing.
Incidentally almost all of the first page of the thread revolved around a picture of a catamaran in Croatia taken a few years before the thread started and the OP replied to this positively . It was started a few days before lockdown so it’s no surprise it ended up with past years canal pictures and has carried on.
Theres one thing for sure, BoatinglifeupNorth isn’t supplying much of a tonic on this thread.
As the OP, I very much still enjoy all the contributions. The time stamping of photos over the years has added the dimension of how things change, and has increased the value and enjoyment to me, of this thread.
So thanks especially to Peter Scott, but also to Naughty Cal, I enjoy your photos of UK coastal escapades. So hopefully this thread remains as a valuable record of the ongoing recent history of Britain's inland, and coastal waterways.
14k replies and 640k views obviously means that I am not alone in pursuing this branch of voyeurism.
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48 minutes ago, David Mack said:
And the mobilisation and demobilisation stages of a construction project include the setting up and subsequent removal of the contractors compound(s) (I.e. site offices, plant storage and maintenance facilities, materials storage areas etc) as well things like temporary access roads needed to facilitate the main construction works.
We just knew the set up phase as "site establishment"
And the phase at the end as "site disestablishment"
We had both cost and time allowances for both.
But then again out here in the colonies we don't use the Proper English.
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At all times whilst underway you are expected to keep effective lookout.
Relying only on having complying navigation lights, or anchor light, is often inadequate to ensure you have been seen when threatened with a collision.
From talking to people who have faced this situation, A torch flashed in the direction of the navigating position on the threatening craft, plus then perhaps illuminating your sails, or structure, has then provoked the threatening vessel to then making out your nav lights or anchor light, and then making a required course change to avoid a collision. A solitary steady little red light on yacht slowly proceeding under sail in a vast empty ocean is easily missed by a big ship making good speed on the wide ocean. But a few flashes by a torch much less so.
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Wonderful how the subject of this thread evolved, from the subtleties of shades of post box reds, and their resistance to blue photon bombardment.
Whether it is appropriate to navigate within Sheffield City with your fenders down
Then how far the River Lee could claim title to water further west.
And now the most interesting bit.
What an enclosed area at the front of a narrowboat can be called? and what it has been, and can now be used for.
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On 08/03/2024 at 22:40, PeterScott said:
Walked that section many times but only navigated it twice, later in 2014.
Memories.
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On 25/02/2024 at 00:47, peterboat said:
So yesterday I bought a steel Dutch cruiser, its a boaty boat rather than a corridor 🤣 I currently have a widebeam but I have lusted after this boat for a few years, it has a Sole 44 diesel engine with 146 hours on it. The previous to last owners can only be described as the artful Bodger! He didn't fix anything correctly ever!!!! The list of bodges he did are endless, as I sort them I will list them, i have fixed the water leak on the front hatch already. I only have until the end of may to do it as that's when the BSS runs out, pictures for perusal
They seem to be a very sensible robust type of cruising boaty boat.
I am sure you will get it looking very nice, and operating reliably.
Enjoy.
Are you keeping the wide beam as your residence and using the new acquisition as your recreational boat?
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14 hours ago, IanD said:
It's a legal requirement for an individual to have third party insurance "or such a security in respect of third party risks":
"a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act, and"
An insurance policy simply means that in return for a premium the insurance company guarantees to pay out damages to third parties.
What I believe BT did was the same, except BT -- rather than an insurance company -- accepted the risk (presumably in writing) and guaranteed to pay out damages. They were "self-insuring", which would legally have the same security as an insurance policy. Or maybe BT were actually authorised to act as an insurer?
I don't know if this is still the case nowadays, but the law doesn't seem to exclude this for company-owned vehicles should a big enough company (like BT) choose to do it, though they may have to jump through some legal hoops to do it.
And the large company I worked for "insured" their very large vehicle fleet with a major insurer, with the premium being the amount of claims paid out to third parties plus a handling fee.
Saved the company having to have it's own staff involved in something outside their core expertise.
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On 18/01/2024 at 08:42, LadyG said:
Oh?...... I don't think you read up on the early pioneers of round the world sailing.
Water makers are relatively hi tech, it's the demand by larger crews that requires water makers.
So, people have been known to harvest rainfall, how do you think the Polynesians managed?
I was once given the specifications to construct and to operate a hot water shower for off shore cruising.
Given to me by a very experienced off shore solo sailor, so he was a bit odd anyway.
A design that was evidently well proven by numbers in the offshore cruising community.
Start with an empty 1 litre plastic milk bottle.
Drill a 5/32 hole in the middle of the screw cap, the diameter was evidently crucial.
To use boil a cup of water. (or was it half a cup? can't remember)
Top off with cold water.
(I don't know why you just did not heat 1litre of water to the correct temperature)
Squirt half the contents with soap around targetted areas of the body.
Squirt the remainder to rinse off the soap.
So a 300l tank should be able to shower 300 people.
Never tried it though. Only had a metric drill set.
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And what happens when all this happens on a bend?
Is their a bent bernoulli bypass theorem, or bent bernoulli bang?
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All three of the grey water discharges in our boat got blocked at some stage.
The previous owner left us with his tame bit of multistrand that he used for this task.
A hell of a fiddle.
But we found that the hand pump he used for extracting stray water from the bilges very effective, with the bottom immersed in the canal, and the outer hose pushed hard against the hull penetration. Then pump, about 5 strokes was all that was needed. Trying to keep your face clear.
Al sorts of crud would then appear in the hand basin/ sink and then drain much more freely back out.
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First of all.
What sort of narrowboating are you intending?
Live aboard, all year, or all summer?
Or all summer holiday plus short breaks all year?
This influences heating choices and clothes washing options.
Is access to the entire network important to you?
This sets up maximum craft dimensions.
For how many years?
By yourself, two of you, or at times a whole group?
As a couple we found a 2 plus 2 arrangement ideal.
Have a look at lots of boats. Wilton is a good place to see a lot.
And the concentration of other brokerages nearby. This limits the amount of traipsing around the countryside in your initial quest.
You will also get a gòd idea as to who to trust your boat with, when you sell.
But doing this will give you an idea what you will get for how much, and what features you consider desirable, and a basis to rank those desirabilities.
But don't over think it, or be too dogmatic.
You are best to resign yourself to having to making comprimises here, as otherwise the time boat hunting will take too much time away from actually boating.
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13 hours ago, MtB said:
But its imaginary money though. Fix the housing supply problem and the "wealth" of the property owners you mention will evaporate because house values will tumble.
Supply and demand innit. Flood the market, any market, with supply and the price drops accordingly. Which of course is exactly what we need in the housing market and why it won't happen, all neatly encapsulated in one mechanism.
Alternatively fix the demand side by reducing the population to fit the number of houses we already have. Equally politically unacceptable!
Fixing, or rather taking the actions that reduce the "values" of existing property are deeply unpopular amongst the property owning class.
When our previous Government reduced interest rates as a Covid measure to keep our local economy buoyant, house prices rose about 20% as the covid stimulae were invested on real estate. The property owning class were very happy with their new found wealth, but those seeking to get into the market were devastated.
Our then government attempted to rectify this by savage rises in the interest rate and massively increasing the build rate of social housing.
The effect of this was property prices then dropped 20%
The property owning class were then deeply unhappy, and this was a major factor in the last change of government.
This new government is reducing the new build rate of social housing, and reversing liberalizing restrictive regulations that impedes intensification within current urban boundaries. House prices are now rising again as scarcity with increased immigration is putting upwards pricing pressures.
The property owning class is happy once again.
But those not in the property owning class are being screwed even more.
But they are unlikely to vote for a more left wing government anyway.
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22 hours ago, Jerra said:
The point is there is no shortage of large houses for those who can afford them, what is needed are houses within the price range of people looking to start on the property ladder. Most are single or young couples. I suspect you would have a long search for a family of 6 still living with parents as they haven't been able to start on the property ladder.
Large detached houses do not solve the housing crisis for those who most need houses.
There is no one size fits best.
Whilst the bulk of absolute housing need, no spare bedrooms, is for one or two bedroom units, there is also a requirement for multi bedroom properties, even five and six bedrooms, for those who choose to live in multigenerational family arrangements,
Not the norm in those of us with Anglo Saxon heritage, but not uncommon for those with different heritages.
Here, particularly for our maori and pacifika peoples but increasingly those with Asian heritage.
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15 minutes ago, peterboat said:
I was interested that without migration the population would stay static
Unfortunately the current horrendous costs in parenting children are depressing the birthrate to below the replacement level.
The natural result of this is an aging population, with more and more people no longer in the workforce, and requiring more and more care, paired up with fewer and fewer people to care for them, and a reducing tax base.
The problem that Japan is currently experiencing.
Perhaps this though could be overcome by providing more state support in child raising to at least incentivise bringing the birthrate back to replacement level.
Nene visitor licence
in General Boating
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4 days up and 4 days back is very compressed for a delightful waterway.