Gardner 2LW, starter engaging problem

[charles123]

Would appreciate a bit of help/experiences of the following problem. My engine is now fully installed and was started up for the first time this week. All is well except that sometimes when I turn the key I get a single click (in fact more often than not from cold, although its only been started about 10 times from installation. I have asked a member on here via email and he kindly came back along the lines as follows. He said

 

"What’s happening is that the clearances between the ring gear and the starter pinion are still very tight, the bearing on the pinion is probably still tight and the edges are still sharp. So if they teeth on the two line up exactly just by accident when the engine stops the pinion is blocked. Sometimes trying it a couple more times will get it into mesh and sometimes just turning the engine slightly will do it"

 

I have turned the key on and off up to a dozen times and sometimes it starts after 2 or 3 turns of key. While there is no pulley guard on, I can indeed move the pulley a little to turn the engine and this fixes it but I wont be able to get at the pulley once the guard is installed. Anything I can do?

 

Thanks

 

Charles

[Gibbo]

My 4LW does the same thing. If I boot the starter it sorts it. Though it usually works fine on the second attempt anyway. In my case it's dirty relay contacts on the starter but I can't be bothered stripping it down to clean it.

[WotEver]

Would it be worth removing the starter and filing a really slight bevel on the leading edge of the pinion teeth? Or is that more bother than it's worth?

 

Tony

[charles123]

Would it be worth removing the starter and filing a really slight bevel on the leading edge of the pinion teeth? Or is that more bother than it's worth?

 

Tony

 

Thank you Tony I can easily take the starter off to do this, hopefully the engineers on here will comment

 

Charles

[Gibbo]

Is it a "click" you hear? Or right loud clunk?

 

If it's the teeth hitting each other it will be a right loud clucnk, not a little click.

[charles123]

Is it a "click" you hear? Or right loud clunk?

 

If it's the teeth hitting each other it will be a right loud clucnk, not a little click.

 

It sounds exactly like this engine video on youtube (not my engine of course)

 

 

Charles

[WotEver]

Thassa clunk!

 

T

[scrumpylurcher]

Well, that one has been making that same clunk on odd occasions now for 4 years, and has never failed to start. It only usually does it once but the 2L2`s have very heavy flywheels. Nice to see the old video is still getting plays today.

[Gibbo]

Thassa clunk!

 

Yeah that's the starter jamming. You can also tell by the way the engine light goes out cos the stalled starter has nicked all the volts.

[WotEver]

Yeah that's the starter jamming. You can also tell by the way the engine light goes out cos the stalled starter has nicked all the volts.

Sooooo..... is there any merit in taking the edge off the front of the pinion teeth? Or is that a dumb idea?

 

Tony

[Gibbo]

Sooooo..... is there any merit in taking the edge off the front of the pinion teeth? Or is that a dumb idea?

 

I can only understand things I can't see, like electrons. I can see cogs, therefore they make no sense to me

[WotEver]

I can only understand things I can't see, like electrons. I can see cogs, therefore they make no sense to me

You'll like Graphene then. One atom thick switching on and off... you'd not see that

[Timleech]

Yeah that's the starter jamming. You can also tell by the way the engine light goes out cos the stalled starter has nicked all the volts.

 

The one in the video clip has a BS5 starter, which was the norm for these engines if they had electric start at all. I think the OP's engine has a modern starter, probably the Transit van type.

The BS5 is an axial starter, with a big solenoid on the end which is tripped as the armature moves forward into engagement. Sometimes the solenoid doesn't trip properly, or misbehaves in other ways. I don't know enough about what goes on inside the OP's starter to comment, beyond suggesting that maybe the newness hasn't worn off yet

 

Tim

[cereal tiller]

what size and type is the engine start battery?it may be worth doubling its capacity.

[charles123]

Would it help if I greased the ring gear/starter pinion?

 

Charles

[steamraiser2]

Check that your starter motor is not too close to the flywheel or misaligned. I've seen them packed between the mount and motor before now. Slacken the clamps and move it back a little bit. If its not that its probably down to a tired starter motor lacking the initial inertia to engage and move the engine.It's why we refurbish all of ours as a matter of course during restorations. Getting a B5 reconditioned is easy enough but if you are stuck for a good repair guy get in touch and I'll point you in a low cost direction!

[Timleech]

Would it help if I greased the ring gear/starter pinion?

 

Charles

 

I doubt it.

 

Check that your starter motor is not too close to the flywheel or misaligned. I've seen them packed between the mount and motor before now. Slacken the clamps and move it back a little bit. If its not that its probably down to a tired starter motor lacking the initial inertia to engage and move the engine.It's why we refurbish all of ours as a matter of course during restorations. Getting a B5 reconditioned is easy enough but if you are stuck for a good repair guy get in touch and I'll point you in a low cost direction!

 

 

Not a BS5 starter - see my post above.

It's a modern, flange mounted starter IIRC.

The point about possibly not enough clearance may be valid, there should be 1/8" between the pinion and the ring gear at rest.

 

Tim

[charles123]

what size and type is the engine start battery?it may be worth doubling its capacity.

 

Thank you, I already have double starter batteries, its not a battery issue

 

Charles

 

Check that your starter motor is not too close to the flywheel or misaligned. I've seen them packed between the mount and motor before now. Slacken the clamps and move it back a little bit. If its not that its probably down to a tired starter motor lacking the initial inertia to engage and move the engine.It's why we refurbish all of ours as a matter of course during restorations. Getting a B5 reconditioned is easy enough but if you are stuck for a good repair guy get in touch and I'll point you in a low cost direction!

 

Thank you, its a new starter and the ring gear is new too. I will check the clearance

 

Charles

[steamraiser2]

Oh..a Transit starter. Well thats a different order of grief then. Transits have a wide variety of starter types but none of them are powerful enough for your application. For modern starter set ups on Gardners, and the Kromhout variants, we use a Perkins starter motor which is 3.0kw, and just powerful enough. You are not the first to put a Transit starter on and have problems. Some types are as low as 1.4 KW which is way too underpowered and we have heard that even the more powerful types don't last too long. You may also have a pitch angle mis-match too as some ring gears and starters are 14 degrees and others are 20 degrees. I am yet to fit a modern starter motor to a Gardner and get the satisfying clunk and whirr of the old CAV types.

[charles123]

Oh..a Transit starter. Well thats a different order of grief then. Transits have a wide variety of starter types but none of them are powerful enough for your application. For modern starter set ups on Gardners, and the Kromhout variants, we use a Perkins starter motor which is 3.0kw, and just powerful enough. You are not the first to put a Transit starter on and have problems. Some types are as low as 1.4 KW which is way too underpowered and we have heard that even the more powerful types don't last too long. You may also have a pitch angle mis-match too as some ring gears and starters are 14 degrees and others are 20 degrees. I am yet to fit a modern starter motor to a Gardner and get the satisfying clunk and whirr of the old CAV types.

 

starter motor

 

[Timleech]

Oh..a Transit starter. Well thats a different order of grief then. Transits have a wide variety of starter types but none of them are powerful enough for your application. For modern starter set ups on Gardners, and the Kromhout variants, we use a Perkins starter motor which is 3.0kw, and just powerful enough. You are not the first to put a Transit starter on and have problems. Some types are as low as 1.4 KW which is way too underpowered and we have heard that even the more powerful types don't last too long. You may also have a pitch angle mis-match too as some ring gears and starters are 14 degrees and others are 20 degrees. I am yet to fit a modern starter motor to a Gardner and get the satisfying clunk and whirr of the old CAV types.

 

'Transit starter' was just my guess, I know RNs use something similar.

(Edit - I have one here, which is this item)

 

Tim

Edited May 28, 2011 by Timleech

[charles123]

I took the starter off then put it back on with one spring washer per bolt to offset it by the thickness of the washer. This has now solved the problem and it turns over each turn of the key.

 

Thanks to all contributors to the topic

 

Charles

[Sir Nibble]

Missed this one 'cos I've been boating. Just a few observations.

Charles, just for future reference you have a pre engaged type starter in this case made by Bosch. I urge you to have an appropriate spacer made for your starter, if you leave it with washers as spacers then this will over time fret and damage both bolts and starter flange, bolts are not made to be stressed that way. If you aim for a clearance of 6mm between starter pinion and ring gear you will not be far wrong.

For the enthusiastic masses. I've been rebuilding those old CAV axial starters all my life and the pinions have a lead machined on them as standard, as does Charles's Bosch. So yes it is a good idea and they've done it.

Gibbo, don't fart around with those contacts Unless you intend to go the whole hog and make a jig to face them off correctly, buy a new solenoid assembly from Wood Auto or CARGO.

Steamraiser, are you involved in the restoration of old Gardners? If so are you aware that there is a range of BOSCH starters visually almost indestinguishable from the old CAV axials? I have often wondered if there was one that would simply bolt on to a Gardner.

[Arnot]

Charles, just for future reference you have a pre engaged type starter in this case made by Bosch. I urge you to have an appropriate spacer made for your starter, if you leave it with washers as spacers then this will over time fret and damage both bolts and starter flange, bolts are not made to be stressed that way. If you aim for a clearance of 6mm between starter pinion and ring gear you will not be far wrong.

Hi Snib,

Been away in Geneva myself for a day or two, nice break...

 

FWIW I suspect that Charles's starter is an Iskra Bosch ripoff but they are generally well made. I suggested he just leave it a while to let the newness wear off to see what happens but I suspect he prefers a black and white world with instant answers.

 

Anyway Charles, listen to Snib! The washers will cause more problems long term than they cure short term, the starting torque will almost certainly loosen them in a matter of weeks and then there will be a poor earth to the starter (unless in the unlikely event it has a dedicated earth to the comm end bracket)the washers will turn into sparklers and the smoke will generally escape from places it was never intended to be. This process will precipitate a VERY large bill unless you are lucky.

 

I can laser cut a 1mm spacer but honestly think that a little patience will prove it unecessary

 

Regards

 

Arnot

[Sir Nibble]

Hi Snib,

FWIW I suspect that Charles's starter is an Iskra Bosch ripoff but they are generally well made. Regards

 

Arnot

From the picture I would say it's genuine, 300 series I think.