Rule 1100 Bilge Pump Concerns

[NB Willawaw]

We have two Rule 1100 Automatic Bilge Pumps on the boat; one in a cat-litter tray under the stern gland and another up forward.

 

We use the cat-litter tray as a cheap form of containment tray to focus any water coming from the gland, into a small area, so the pump can pick it up.

 

These pumps use a float switch which is located inside the body of the pump.

 

This makes them very hard to see or test and they are not particularly sophisticated affairs.

 

As part of a boat equipment upgrade, I've fitted a solid state switch and cable tied it to the pump, to act as a back-up switch in parallel.

 

I have a bit more faith in these switches and as they are external, they can be tested.

 

Installation is quite easy - cable tie the sensor to the pump body at the appropriate height and connect it to the point where the cable running from the AUTO-MAN-OFF switch on the cockpit panel connects to the bilge pump's attached cable.

 

Clicky:

Solid State Sensor

 

Edited May 22, 2011 by NB Willawaw

[MoominPapa]

I don't have any automatic bilge pumps, just a manual one in the space under the stern gland. Am I taking stupid risks?

 

MP.

[NB Willawaw]

Stupid ??

 

Who's to say.

 

There is a risk, otherwise why have a bilge pump at all, especially if you aren't there every day to manually activate the pump and visually check the bilge level. The risk is increased if your boat has a tendency to take in rain water or leak in one way or another.

 

We have a pump forward just in case the 1000 litres of fresh water in the tank decides to empty itself into the bilge. We would like to pump it overboard before it comes up through the floor.

 

Its very easy to make a manual pump into an automatic one - a panel switch and water level sensor (£30/40 tops ?).

 

Only you can make the decision as to whether its worth it.

Edited May 22, 2011 by NB Willawaw

[carlt]

 

 

Its very easy to make a manual pump into an automatic one - a panel switch and water level sensor (£30/40 tops ?)...

 

...or just add a Rule float switch (less than £20).

[NB Willawaw]

and a panel switch if you want to be able to switch between manual and auto.

 

I'm not a great fan of float switches - they tend to either contain Mercury or be dependent on mechanical switches.

 

I now have both the float switch in the Rule working in parallel with the solid state type.

A failure in either wouldn't stop the pump switching on.

 

...or just add a Rule float switch (less than £20).

[carlt]

and a panel switch if you want to be able to switch between manual and auto.

 

I'm not a great fan of float switches - they tend to either contain Mercury or be dependent on mechanical switches.

 

I now have both the float switch in the Rule working in parallel with the solid state type.

A failure in either wouldn't stop the pump switching on.

Rule switches are mercury free and extremely reliable.

 

I'm not a great fan of solid state switches, in a motor, as they don't seem to get on with a layer of engine oil.

 

A Parallel system, such as yours, would definitely be the best way to go, though I don't like combined pump/switches as there isn't much room, in the float chamber, so they can be jammed much more easily than the lever type (which, as long as you check they are moving freely, are pretty foolproof).

[NB Willawaw]

Oil won't trigger the sensor, unlike a float switch.

With the solid state type, if there is a layer of oil on top of the bilge water, it will activate when the oil passes above the level of the sensor and it makes contact with the water beneath.

 

On the other hand, it won't pump oil into the canal like a float switch will.

 

Nothing is perfect in life - just a series of compromises.

Edited May 22, 2011 by NB Willawaw

[carlt]

If there is a layer of oil on top of the bilge water, it will activate when the oil passes above the level of the sensor and it makes contact with the water.

In my experience the clung to the sensor and the pump didn't activate.

 

My back up pump (triggering when the water was 2" higher) was acting as the main pump so often that I ditched the solid state switch and put another Rule on.

 

 

On the other hand, it won't pump oil into the canal like a float switch will.

 

What makes you say that?

 

My float switches were set to never pump oil into the canal. You just step them half an inch or so above the pump.

[NB Willawaw]

Rule switches do fail with age, just like any other mechanical float switch.

[carlt]

Rule switches do fail with age, just like any other mechanical float switch.

Doesn't everything?

[NB Willawaw]

The new generation of Rulemate 1100 pumps which has the same shape/size casing as our older models, have a built-in

solid state switch of some sort from Rule. This appears to have replaced the integral float switch that ours have, suggesting some

sort of problem with the earlier design.

 

However, these new pumps are £80 and as I said earlier, we have two.

 

In future, I would be tempted to have a basic bilge pump with a separate solid state sensor mounted on the outside and spliced into

its connections.

 

This makes a much more reliable and visible/accessible installation.

[carlt]

The new generation of Rulemate 1100 pumps which has the same shape/size casing as our older models, have a built-in solid state switch of some sort from Rule. This appears to have replaced the integral float switch that ours have, suggesting some

sort of problem with the earlier design.

 

I'd feel far happier with an integral solid state switch, than an integral float switch.

 

My tests of all pumps, with integral float switches have been, without exception, failures.

 

I'd still want to parallel a float switch, alongside it, as you suggested, though.

[NB Willawaw]

So the best foolproof combination could be a conventional float switch with a solid state switch in parallel to it

and one separate bilge pump.

 

Everything is accessible and independently replaceable - no expensive integrated system as such.

 

A new Rulemate 1100 is £80 (with just an integral switch).

 

With three separate parts it is just under that (about £70-75).

[madcat]

Washing up bowl,a square one is what I use for catching any drips from stern tube.Holds a bit more watter than a cat lit tray,baled out with a modified tin can into a bucket if I get any significant content.

[NB Willawaw]

Yes but a bilge pump is not designed to save you the effort of bailing a few drops of water out from normal use.

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

This makes them very hard to see or test and they are not particularly sophisticated affairs.

 

<snip>

 

I have a bit more faith in these switches and as they are external, they can be tested.

 

<snip>

 

Surely all bilge pumps are easy to test. You just need a bucket of water tipped into the bilge

 

Richard

[NB Willawaw]

Yes if you want to make a dry bilge, wet.

An external float switch or solid state switch can be tested without having to slop a bucketful of water into an otherwise dry and clean bilge area.

My forward bilge pump is under the floor, so not very practical.

 

As Carl says, internal bilge switches aren't that reliable - easy to get clogged or jam. After all, I wonder how many people with BPs with internal switches actually open them and clean it - I certainly don't.

 

Actually, come to that, after the previous post, I wonder how many narrowboaters have bilge pumps at all ??

 

Coming to inland waterways from the sea, whether to fit a bilge pump or not, was never a question for me.

 

 

 

Surely all bilge pumps are easy to test. You just need a bucket of water tipped into the bilge

 

Richard

[madcat]

We all have them but mine hangs out in the cargo hold which is where rain water gathers.It would be straightforeward to drop the 12v one in under the floor to shift more water than a sponge could mop out.

Thers not enough battery power to sustain an automatic pump[if the float switch worked]for very long anyway.Its not like a ship with somebody there 24/7 to respond to the alarms and sort it.

[NB Willawaw]

Surely it depends on the boat and individual application.

 

Ours is a modern boat without an open hold.

 

Generally speaking, we don't leak. My concern is the water tank spilling a 1000 litres of water under the floor, rain getting into the engine bay and pooling if I can't get to the boat for a while or something going wrong with the shaft seal or weed hatch.

 

For this reason, we have an man/auto bilge pump at each end and a bilge alarm in the engine bay which will tell me if I don't put the weed hatch back properly or if the stern gland drips too much at night/bilge pump doesn't deal with it.

 

Not expensive - peace of mind.

 

If you have a boat that collects rain in the hold and no shorepower/limited battery power, then have you considered a solar panel ??

 

We all have them but mine hangs out in the cargo hold which is where rain water gathers.It would be straightforeward to drop the 12v one in under the floor to shift more water than a sponge could mop out.

Thers not enough battery power to sustain an automatic pump[if the float switch worked]for very long anyway.Its not like a ship with somebody there 24/7 to respond to the alarms and sort it.

[madcat]

Mark I can see exactly why you have the set up you describe and it sounds a good one.We had a weed hatch leak with our modern boat and a split water tank,the first was cleared up by bailing with a dustpan and the second with a mains powered submersible pump.I have to say that it was a relief to sell the boat,just when all the problems were solved as it happens.

Solar panels ,I have a few small ones to deal with self discharge of batteries but there isn't the roof space for any big ones,what roof there is has 2 hatches a chimney collar a mushroom vent a bullseye and the engine room skylight on it also the hot air outlet for the Lister engine.Bit crowded up there.Iam considering how I could fit more maybe on a demountable frame.

With no water tank and no weedhatch no cooling water and no associated plumbing I'm spared a lot of the possible water incidents and hope plenty of grease and keeping a sharp eye on it will keep the stern tube drips to a minimum.The bottle of homebrew that exploded in the side bed was a bit of a sticky mess to clean up.

[NB Willawaw]

I take it back.

 

You probably need a homebrew alarm then !!

 

or switch to Special Brew and then you won't worry about rain, bilge pumps (or anything else for that matter)..

 

 

The bottle of homebrew that exploded in the side bed was a bit of a sticky mess to clean up.

 

 

It's strange how these things go around.

 

After upgrading our pumps because the internal float switch thing was nagging at me, I came across a Rule automatic pump on a private diving R.I.B yesterday and the owner wasn't very happy because the internal switch has stopped working. I was going to tell him about strapping the solid state sensor on it, piggyback style, but he has already dissected the pump to see what stopped it working. Looks like he will fit a new manual pump with a separate/external solid state sensor.

Edited May 26, 2011 by NB Willawaw

[WotEver]

... he has already dissected the pump to see what stopped it working.

Just out of curiosity, do you know what the fault turned out to be? I binned a Rule with non-functioning float switch last month and replaced it with a Whale. As far as I could tell, the float had a magnet inside it which (presumably) switched a microswitch within the casing. As it's so simple, I was wondering what could have caused it to cease functioning, but I didn't really have the time to investigate.

 

Tony

[NB Willawaw]

No it was in pieces and I don't think he drew a conclusion other than he believed the electronics wasn't as good as the pump engineering.

[Tonka]

Well my current narrowboat at 17 years old has no bilge pump and no provision for one and my previous narrowboat was 16 years old when we sold it and that had no bilge pump.

[blackrose]

Surely all bilge pumps are easy to test. You just need a bucket of water tipped into the bilge

 

Richard

 

My Attwood Sahara 500 bilge pump with integral float switch has an external spindle attached to the float switch so you don't even need to use water to test it.

 

My tests of all pumps, with integral float switches have been, without exception, failures.

 

I don't really understand what the difference is between and integral or external float switch apart from the fact that one is on the inside and one's on the outside? My Attwoods have grilles around the integral float switches to prevent them being jammed with crap, but I suppose any switch can fail if the bilges are dirty enough.

 

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