Unlicensed craft

[Khayamanzi]

(Moderators - please feel free to move or remove if you wish!)

 

I do hope you will excuse the rude and un-invited interruption to your lives but thought you might be interested in the following. I want to inform as many boating folk as possible of the new on-line database I have created for reportings of unlicensed craft on BW waters. BW seem to be regularly 'talking down' what I, and many others believe to be quite a problem on the system and so felt a simple on-line database would be a good way of identifying the true extent, (or not) of the problem. I would urge people to make notes when passing by long lines of unlicensed craft on pleasant cruises and then add to the database at khayamanzi.com by following the link on the 'welcome aboard' page. Hopefully, in time, there will be something there worth quoting to BW so that action may be taken and thus relieve the financial burdon we are all 'picking up'. (Maybe I'm being niaive here but at least divert it to more useful and beneficial uses!)

 

Regards,

Edited February 4, 2006 by Khayamanzi

[cheshire~rose]

It will be interesting to see others thoughts on this matter. As I am not a boat owner myself I am not really qualified to comment but it does seem reasonable that there is some sort of policing of licence fee dodgers or else there is bound to be a lot of bad feeling. In theroy I think this is probably quite a good idea but it could cause some problems.

What I was unaware of until last year was the fact that in certain circumstances BW will allow a delay in paying for the licence so long as the boat owner keeps them informed of the situation. I became aware of this when a boat owner that I know took his boat for its inspection which it was thought would be fairly routine only to find that it failed on something which appeared to require some significant work to put right (boat out of the water and engine removed) Although the actual fault was not in any way making the boat at all dangerous. Obviously without a current safety certificate you cannot get a current licence. In the height of the summer season finding a marine engineer/ boatyard who can at short notice take on a job like that is almost impossible.

A cruise was planned imminently and so the matter was discussed with BW and it was explained to them that paying was not a problem but getting the certificate WAS. They agreed that under the circumstances they would notify BW staff not to enforce the issue with regard this particular boat and the particular route that was planned.

Once the boat returned from its planned cruise the work to rectify the fault was done, a new safety certificate was obtained and the licence paid in full. (obviously backdated to when it had first become due)

My point is that this is just one case of a boat travelling the system in the height of the summer with an out of date licence. I am quite certain that many boat owners passed it (even shared a lock with it) and spotted the fact that the licence fee was overdue and probably wrung their hands at the injustice of it. No body actually mentioned it to the boat owner at all. I am certain he would not be too happy at the name of his boat appearing on a 'private blacklist' of licence dodgers when there was a valid reason for this to be the case. In fact the amount he eventually had to pay was significantly more as the reduced fee for paying on time was not available to him in this instance. He had no issue with paying his licence fee it was just the circumstances at that time.

There are however a lot of boats out there that just seem to flout the rules and they should not get away with it.

[Khayamanzi]

I take the point on this one but think that with the possible hundreds of boats not displaying licenses, your situation is in the significant minority - indeed, I would say extremely rare! It is in fact, an offence not to display the licence in the same way as it is with cars and so I would argue that BW were irresponsible in your situation for not faxing or emailing a 'cover note' or letter to be displayed. I have seen many boats who display their yellow renewal slip with a note explaining that the licence had not been received prior to starting the trip and that is a wholly different matter. I, personally would never cruise without either the licence or an explanation displayed that could be verified if someone so wished. In fact BW themselves publish their licence evasion hotline number, (01923 20 11 22) and widely encourage people to report unlicensed craft that they see on their travels. I have done this many times and they always take it very seriously and have, on occasions, phoned me back to let me know that some of the boats were registered up to date, simply not displaying the licence. I lump this in with the whole 'bridge hopping' scenario. There are too many people now who see this wonderful 'cheap' way of life on TV and try to do it behind the rules and with little or no regard to the tradition or customs and, unfortunately, at the moment it is too easy for them to get away with it.

 

Perhaps, I ought to clarify in that the database does not have a field asking for the names of any vessels. It is merely requesting the numbers of craft and where spotted so that a 'picture' can be obtained. I am not advocating 'naming and shaming' in any way possible, I merely wish to see if the situation is as bad right across the system as I have observed on my travels.

[boatchad]

Sometimes things aren't all they appear to be. A couple of years ago I was on holiday on a hire boat when the tunnel keeper at the Harecastle noticed the boats license was out of date, I was horrified and explained that it was a hire boat and not my own boat. This boat was hired from a small hire company that did not paint their boats up as hire boats and they looked very much like private boats. At the end of the holiday I returned the boat and complained to the boatyard that they had allowed me to take out an unlicensed boat. The yard replied 'rubbish of course the boat is licensed' the current license was in fact displayed in a window on the other side of the boat, behind the curtain. This would have been visible from the outside on the other side but not from inside the boat and not from the towpath side. The out of date license that the tunnel keeper had spotted was on the other side of the boat and someone had simply forgotten to remove it. One side of boat current license, the other side an out of date license. The license fee had been paid and the license was displayed.

 

So if you are going to note unlicensed craft then you need to make sure you check both sides and not simply glance down one side as you pass before you can hope to record accurate data. Jumping to conclusions is an easy mistake to make, as the tunnel keeper and I found out to my embarrassment at least.

[Khayamanzi]

I refer you to the General Licence Conditions document paragraph 4.1 (valid from 1st April 2005)

 

You must display the Boat's name and the licence and Boat index number on both sides of the Boat so that they are always easily visible to our people on the towpath

 

Link to the General Licence Conditions document.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Khayamanzi

[alan_fincher]

Sometimes things aren't all they appear to be. A couple of years ago I was on holiday on a hire boat when the tunnel keeper at the Harecastle noticed the boats license was out of date, I was horrified and explained that it was a hire boat and not my own boat. This boat was hired from a small hire company that did not paint their boats up as hire boats and they looked very much like private boats. At the end of the holiday I returned the boat and complained to the boatyard that they had allowed me to take out an unlicensed boat. The yard replied 'rubbish of course the boat is licensed' the current license was in fact displayed in a window on the other side of the boat, behind the curtain. This would have been visible from the outside on the other side but not from inside the boat and not from the towpath side. The out of date license that the tunnel keeper had spotted was on the other side of the boat and someone had simply forgotten to remove it. One side of boat current license, the other side an out of date license. The license fee had been paid and the license was displayed.

 

So if you are going to note unlicensed craft then you need to make sure you check both sides and not simply glance down one side as you pass before you can hope to record accurate data. Jumping to conclusions is an easy mistake to make, as the tunnel keeper and I found out to my embarrassment at least.

 

I refer you to the General Licence Conditions document paragraph 4.1 (valid from 1st April 2005)

Link to the General Licence Conditions document.

 

To be completely clear and unambiguous to anybody reading the forum that does not have their own boat, (or who is not the one who attaches the licences)....

 

BW supply you with 2 copies of the licence - so whichever side the boat is viewed from, it should always be possible to see a current one.

 

I think the hiring company WAS at fault in the case cited here.

 

I have been told that if you buy a boat that has got it's either of its BW metal plates with the boat number on missing from it, it can be surprisingly hard to get a replacement from them. I don't know if that's true or not? Fortunately ours came with a set of two, so no issue there for us.

[fender.]

Some might be upset at you doing it. Its not that I dont condone it, it is a idea that has its merits, but the issue is that we should NOT being doing BW's jobs. Its a bit like vigilantism. As we all know, BW has a terrible record of enforcing or chasing up defaulters, and it is BW who should be putting it right, not us.

 

They are so lackisidal with licences, yet they prattle to the ends of the Earth about new developments, selling off the land and canal property etc, they bang the drum of the mega bucks property dealer so loudly they can't hear the other concerns that emerge from the forest, and yet they seem to play something akin to a xylophone or something of that sort when it comes to licence defaulters, its all sweet tunes, in other words BW is the sad, sordid case of a dog chasing its own tail.

 

Yes they are getting to grips with it slowly, VERY slowly. If it was another private compnay that let so many down and dealt such a miserable diservice, they would be fined millions by the courts. But BW has got away with such an appaling diservice and I dont see how it can be justified, and I dont see how our reporting licences can justify BW's failures. One thing I would expect is that if BW does successfully chase all the defaulters, I would expect BW to not increase licences for a good while in lieu of the extra revenue they are getting from those who are forced to get licences. The loss that it made through so many not paying licences is its fault entirely - and one that BW should not ever use as an excuse to penalise other waterway users.

[GRPCruiserman]

First I must point out that I will always pay my dues and my boat holds a current licence, insurance, BSC etc. This is a major expense for me as I am on a very low income but I make sure it is paid as it should be.

 

I can see a flaw in your plans for a database, ie: BW can take a VERY long time to send out licence and mooring permit documents, especially if you change the name of your boat or have to set up a direct debit.

 

Renewals are usually in good time, but with a new licence, it can be some time in to a licence before the discs are displayed. BW no longer issue receipts as they used to either, even if you vivit the office in person.

 

This is not a problem where BW are concerned as they can check their computer, but I think a private database is a bad idea as it doesn't take in to consideration the full facts and would leave the owner of the database open to prosecution for deformation of charachter.

 

I understand why you are trying to set this up, but when we have strict enforcers along the cut (at least we do on the Lancaster, a friend of mine got moved up because he was moored too close to a bridge on a mooring ring by a very assertive enforcement officer), why do we need this?

 

My licence has been checked many times at many locations by BW. There were two guys at Llangollen a couple of years ago. The guy said they check them all every day. Plank Lane write them all down as they do at Tarleton and also on The Ribble Link flight. If you go in or out at Glasson they write you down as well. Also every lock I went through up The Trent wrote my number down and checked the licence. The Leeds Liverpool as you approach Leeds is also manned and they check every licence.

 

Your proposal is a little bit vigilante in my view and could lead people in a lot of un deserved hassle.

 

Leave the policing to the police and use BW's own hotline.

[Carrie]

Oh god.

BW must love you Mr Edwards. What's the pay-off then, for your 'shop-a-boater' file? Cheaper licence fee?

[Webchem]

I think this is a reasonable idea, the only people who have anything to hide are those with an out of date license.

 

Not owning a boat myself I have no idea about hwo to get one, or the regulations necessary. Maybe only those who have experience of actually buying a license ought to enter data - they are less likely to make a cock up?

 

 

Finally with car licensing, the DVLA seems to have wised up and is now starting to use technology to identify those lovely people who don't bother getting car tax. I am afraid I take great delight in emailing DVLA registrations belonging to those who aren't either displaying a disc (against the law) or those who dislplay an out of date one. In most cases they don't have insurance or MoT either. Most of the boats I have seen without licenses also look to be in a similar situation to the cars I see.

 

I think there may be a data protection issue, or does it only come into force when personal information is stored in a database - or information linked to that person?

 

[Guest]

Oh god.

BW must love you Mr Edwards. What's the pay-off then, for your 'shop-a-boater' file? Cheaper licence fee?

Please don't refer to freeloaders as boaters. Boaters I know like to pay their way. I live in an area of freeloaders (most of whom are capable of doing something useful) for whom I must pay and frankly am pi**ed off with them.

[Khayamanzi]

When posting the original message I was expecting the usual dissenting views and sarcasm that I have come to expect from this forum. Thank you to the people who did lend their support together with constructive comments.

 

The 'plan' is no plan whatsoever!! It is merely a way of identifying the true scale to the problem. As already mentioned, (but apparently overlooked by peoples expert skimming and scanning techniques,) there is no personal details whatsoever recorded. If anyone is not happy with what is being done, I suggest they have something to hide. I'm afraid I am not worried by the criminal fraternity in this world - I am simply a little fed up with them coming onto the waterways and hijacking what isa hobby, interest, passion and now way of life. No-one would argue about the people who dodge paying car tax, have no motor insurance, drink and drive etc etc.so where is the difference?

 

I wouldlike to assure you 'Catweasel' that there is absolutely no pay off whatsoever from BW, to suggest such a thing might betray the character behind the name? I, like so many others, merely resent the fact that I pay all costs necessary, (including council tax!) where others feel they can take the lifestyle without giving anything back. There is no such thing as a free lunch and some people need to learn that. If you don't like the idea, fine - I can respect you for that, but please don't tell anyone: I'm off in my car to the local for a major knees-up and will be driving back at about 6.00 this evening, probably more than worse for wear!

[Guest]

When posting the original message I was expecting the usual dissenting views and sarcasm that I have come to expect from this forum. Thank you to the people who did lend their support together with constructive comments.

 

The 'plan' is no plan whatsoever!! It is merely a way of identifying the true scale to the problem. As already mentioned, (but apparently overlooked by peoples expert skimming and scanning techniques,) there is no personal details whatsoever recorded. If anyone is not happy with what is being done, I suggest they have something to hide. I'm afraid I am not worried by the criminal fraternity in this world - I am simply a little fed up with them coming onto the waterways and hijacking what isa hobby, interest, passion and now way of life. No-one would argue about the people who dodge paying car tax, have no motor insurance, drink and drive etc etc.so where is the difference?

 

I wouldlike to assure you 'Catweasel' that there is absolutely no pay off whatsoever from BW, to suggest such a thing might betray the character behind the name? I, like so many others, merely resent the fact that I pay all costs necessary, (including council tax!) where others feel they can take the lifestyle without giving anything back. There is no such thing as a free lunch and some people need to learn that. If you don't like the idea, fine - I can respect you for that, but please don't tell anyone: I'm off in my car to the local for a major knees-up and will be driving back at about 6.00 this evening, probably more than worse for wear!

I invite you to re-read my post! You have read my quote from another and taken that as mine. I agree with you! What I said was that like you I am pi**ed off with freeloaders. Good luck to you in your mission.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Guest

[Maffi]

Surely the object of Andy's 'plan' is not to name and shame, but to gain data on numbers and locations for when BW says, "There is no problem".

 

At the link address there is nowhere to put a name or number.

 

At the moment my boat in only 10mm high, but even I know the rules about licences. It ain't rocket science and it's not impossible to follow.

[Khayamanzi]

My deepest and most humble apologies Catweasel!!

 

I re-direct my post above to Carrie!!

[Curly]

Oh god.

BW must love you Mr Edwards. What's the pay-off then, for your 'shop-a-boater' file? Cheaper licence fee?

 

Carrie,

I pay the best part of £600 a year to licence my boat and it makes me very angry when I see other people getting the same use of the waterways for nothing!!!

 

I have just received a letter form BW asking for a copy of my boat insurance renewal as they are doing a random check. I sent it, as I am always licenced and insured, and asked if the same resourses are being spent on chasing licence dodgers as these are just as likely to be uninsured!

 

There are too many people now who see this wonderful 'cheap' way of life on TV and try to do it behind the rules and with little or no regard to the tradition or customs and, unfortunately, at the moment it is too easy for them to get away with it.

 

Here, here!

[John Orentas]

If anyone is thinking about starting a campaign on this issue it should be to get BW to do the job that they have been tasked to do. They have already spent a 'kings ransom' on computer systems and data collection it is about time they put it all to some sort of use.

 

They have details of every boat and boat owner on their files and they also have (or should have) details of when licenses were renewed or not, they send me a reminder to renew my license a few days ago they certainly seem to know everything there is to know about me so why can't they put the information together, or perhaps I am just a soft target.

 

They also sent a leaflet 'Renew Online' www.watrerscape.com/renewal. It doesn't work, why am I not surprised.

[alan_fincher]

Oh god.

BW must love you Mr Edwards. What's the pay-off then, for your 'shop-a-boater' file? Cheaper licence fee?

Carrie,

 

I often support quite a lot of what I see you campaigning about on this forum, but really can't understand where you are coming from on this one.

 

As Andy has repeatedly said, he is not asking anyone to shop anyone, only to try and establish the real statistics about how many boats are unlicenced, (i.e NO NAMES).

 

But anyway, I'm firmly in the camp that if I'm paying, and other are not, then I'm actually paying more than my fair share in order to subsidise others, (who apparently think that's quite reasonable that I do).

 

I assume you intend to licence a boat when you get one, so will you be entirely happy with paying extra yourself, because others are not paying at all ?

 

Why have BW apparently shown little enthusiasm for tackling this particular issue over a huge number of years ? Don't they want the revenue ? If they want to move further towards fully funding themselves, they need to collect all that is due to them, I think.

[NB Esk]

But anyway, I'm firmly in the camp that if I'm paying, and other are not, then I'm actually paying more than my fair share in order to subsidise others, (who apparently think that's quite reasonable that I do).

 

Fully agree, as a taxpayer I support quite enough freeloaders.

 

What i would question though, is the wisdom of linking a boat name with this campaign....?

[Khayamanzi]

Fully agree, as a taxpayer I support quite enough freeloaders.

 

What i would question though, is the wisdom of linking a boat name with this campaign....?

 

 

With the obvious emotions and apparent escalation of what I am trying to achieve here, I can see the concern of being public about it however, this is of no threat whatsoever to anyone on an individual basis. If I was naming boats or index numbers, I could see that I could become a target. I am simply interested in numbers and waterway locations that are a problem - not singling people out. What are unlicenced craft going to do, throw stones at me as I pass? Whenever out and about, I am rarely off or away from the boat and besides, I wonder how many of those with unlicenced craft have an internet connection and read forums such as this.I would guess you have to have at least some interest in the waterways to read this forum or waterway publications and if these people did have any interest at all, this 'campaign' would be obsolete.

 

I appreciate the concern but you can leave the worrying to me and simply help by contributing data.

 

I reply to Jon's message earlier, I completely agree that in an ideal world BW would be 'on the ball' with regard this matter but not only are they not, they appear to be in denial that the issue even exists. You, yourself explained that their online renewal system isn't working - on the basis of that, I doubt if they really do have any reliable and factual data that proves or dis-credits the existance of the problem?? ......

 

.....enter the existance of a 'live' database

[fender.]

Carrie,

I pay the best part of £600 a year to licence my boat and it makes me very angry when I see other people getting the same use of the waterways for nothing!!!

 

Agreed! Yes unlicenced boats make me annoyed. But its not them. Its BW. Why dont you get ANGRY with BW instead?? They are the problem, they let us down. They cant be bothered, havent been bothered up to now. I am really f..... angry with BW for a lot of things including this licence fisasco. I tried complaining on the phone a while back about unlicenced boats and bridge hoppers who had stayed on a bit of towpath for well over 6 months, preventing some of us legitmate boaters being able to moor even just for a day. These unlicensed boaters have stayed on and on - and are STILL THERE nearly 8 months after I first complianed. I cant be bothered anymore its BW who are the problem, its a waste of effort trying to get through a bunch of thickos.

 

And what actually happened when I called BW? They asked me to take photographs and write down the numbers and location, and email it to them. Whats more, the person on the other end of the phone said he was not aware of the boats (CHRIST!! NOT AWARE?? Its just a short distance from BW's local offices!!! Do they sit in their office all day and play Foxton Locks then??? Or drool over a girlie mag, and worse still, surf net porn all day? How can they NOT KNOW??)

 

Am i supposed to do BW's work for them then? They CANT BE BOTHERED! They must be made to be bothered. As always lots of yous people direct their anger at the wrong target. Yes people like Carrie and me are skeptical because we know BW is the pits when it comes to regulating anything, or dealing with problems. Yes unlicensed boaters are a big problem but the even bigger problem lies with BW.

[Khayamanzi]

Woah!! The strength of feeling aroused here proves that there clearly is a problem.

 

BW's attitude is summed up by a boating friend of mine who saw the lesser spotted lengthsman partaking the joys of their latest boaters pacifier - namely, the veg pledge. The BW worker was neatly mowing the towpath but the boater noticed a 2 foot strip being left at the waters edge. He decided to challenge the worker by telling him how neat the towpath looked but hadn't he missed a bit. "Oh no," came the reply, " my orders are to cut all the vegetaion down but leave a 2 foot strip at the waters edge for the wildlife." Admirable though this is, it does beg the question, who are the top prioity in BW's interest nowadays??

 

The lengthsmen who maintain lengths of cut do not have powers, nor are they required to take action or report on unlicenced or overstaying boats -apparently this is all in the aim of

maintaining positive customer relations....

The only people who are empowered to underatake this task are the patrol officers. This I discovered in a discussion with BW Head Office. I then asked how many patrol officers they have, " 6" came the reply, to which I answered, "surely 6 patrol officers in this area can make a significant improvement in the situation," "Oh no," was the shocked response, "not 6 in this area, 6 in the country to cover the entire waterways,"

 

 

......I rest my case your honour.......

[Carrie]

British Waterways. Raking in massive profits (announced on Radio 4 Business News) and getting ordinary people to police the waterways for them. That's my point.

 

They would like nothing better than to split boaters and get up some antagonistic feeling to make sure they don't have to waste their own profits on cruising around, checking licences. It just needs a few to take the bite. Looks like they have some candidates for the unpaid job already!

 

As for non-payers meaning we will all pay more - what baloney! The numbers of people, myself included, newly taking to the water means profits are set to rise, rise, rise again. THAT is why BW aren't making as much of an effort as they could - because they're doing very nicely, thank you.

 

My own stance? I believe everyone should pay. I've always paid my own way. But I would never 'tell' on a non-payer. If BW are too b****y lazy to enforce their own rules - good luck to them!

[Khayamanzi]

My own stance? I believe everyone should pay. I've always paid my own way. But I would never 'tell' on a non-payer. If BW are too b****y lazy to enforce their own rules - good luck to them!

 

Carrie, ironically we both seem to agree on much of this debate! Although I wouldn't put it across half asstrongly as you, the sentiments I can empathise with.

 

However The quote at the end of your post I can't agree with. As a deputy Headteacher at a school, I spend a lot of my time trying to convince children that telling the relvant and authorised person about a problem or concern you are not happy with, is exactly the correct thing to do. (I guess that's why I enjoy working with children - you can teach children!) Taken to the extreme therefore, I was wrong that time many years ago when I phoned the police having spent a good evening in the pub and watched a complete drunk drive off in his car in front of me up the road, are we wrong to report our car or house when it gets broken into, what about the old lady or woman who is getting beaten up int he street or the child mowed down by a speeding motorist who then drives off. Laws are often the only consistency we have in this crazy society of ours and I for one would do what I know is right as a citizen in upholding them. If I knew of anyone who was claiming benefit and openly working at the smae time, I would resent that and let the relevant people know - I'm simply doing the same with BW. I do agree, however, that BW could and should do considerable more, but as we are both agreed - they seem considerably intent on profit rearing and therefore, like most organisations are eager to cut costs in the 'after sales' department. As an end user, we have 2 options. We could sit back and say 'good luck to those who flout the law' or we could apply public pressure backed with knowledge and facts to persuade the situation to change.

[dor]

It is a well-established view that there are many boats out there that are unlicenced or do not have a mooring permit. We all know several boats in our local vicinity that are abusing the CC rules.

 

Are we so naive to think that BW employees are ignorant of these goings on? And what is done about it? Not alot!

 

So Eugene, as I hope you are watching this thread, what is the official BW view? And please don't give us the usual BW crap about "well they have got a licence but they weren't displaying it" - Take a lesson from vehicle licencing. And please don't tell me that "only 7% of boats are unlicenced"; that doesn't make me feel any better when I am paying BW for my licence and mooring fee.