Proposed Low Sulphur "red" fuel

[frangar]

Following on from another thread about fuel.......

 

With the proposed introduction of low sulphur red fuel I can foresee us people with vintage engines having a problem!

 

Unlike when lead was removed from petrol...where suppliers came up with lead additives for older engines without hardened valve seats....I dont think the market in vintage diesel engines will be big enough for this to happen.....soooo....

 

What ideas do people have as a replacement for the sulphur? As I understand it its needed to lubricate the injector pump....so would a monograde oil work??....if so how much would you need to add??...would this make the exhaust even more smokey?? (not that my JP smokes you understand!!!...ahem)

 

Why cant the powers that be stop tinkering with stuff that has been fine....

 

My JP pump (made by C.A.V.) has oil in it to lube the cams but I guess the sulphur lubes other parts.....

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

(Otherwise I might just have to buy a 1000l IBC tank and get good old fashioned Gas Oil.........oh a a few jerry cans....)

 

Edited to add that if I've plonked this in the wrong forum....and I think I may have....please feel free to move!!...I blame my dongle!!

Edited June 8, 2010 by frangar

[nb Innisfree]

Following on from another thread about fuel.......

 

With the proposed introduction of low sulphur red fuel I can foresee us people with vintage engines having a problem!

 

Unlike when lead was removed from petrol...where suppliers came up with lead additives for older engines without hardened valve seats....I dont think the market in vintage diesel engines will be big enough for this to happen.....soooo....

 

What ideas do people have as a replacement for the sulphur? As I understand it its needed to lubricate the injector pump....so would a monograde oil work??....if so how much would you need to add??...would this make the exhaust even more smokey?? (not that my JP smokes you understand!!!...ahem)

 

Why cant the powers that be stop tinkering with stuff that has been fine....

 

My JP pump (made by C.A.V.) has oil in it to lube the cams but I guess the sulphur lubes other parts.....

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

(Otherwise I might just have to buy a 1000l IBC tank and get good old fashioned Gas Oil.........oh a a few jerry cans....)

 

Edited to add that if I've plonked this in the wrong forum....and I think I may have....please feel free to move!!...I blame my dongle!!

 

I think high sulphur gas oil will be phased out altogether so won't be available.

 

Perhaps two stroke oil will do the job?

[Naughty Cal]

Why cant the powers that be stop tinkering with stuff that has been fine....

 

Because they are catering for those of us with modern engins that will appreciate some proper fuel?

[alan_fincher]

I think high sulphur gas oil will be phased out altogether so won't be available.

Yes, that would be my answer too.

 

I think ultimately it will simply not be available for any application, so it would clearly have been uneconomic just to retain it for certain old engines, even if that were still permissible.

 

I don't know the answer to how you compensate for the fact the product will ultimately always have far less sulphur in though.

[Artimis]

CAV pumps arnt very suitable for certain bio blends due to the lack of pump lube, but there are additives the veg oil guys use to compensate.

[MoominPapa]

A quick Google of "low-sulphur diesel pump" seems to mainly come up with seal problems, rather than lubrication ones. Most old engines that use unit-injection pumps (either one per cylinder like most Listers post-JP, or a set of separate pumps attached to a common casing and camshaft, like JPs and Nationals) I'm pretty sure that these pumps have no rubber seals, so they should be fine.

 

Old BMCs with tired CAV rotary distributor pumps may be a different story....

 

MP.

[Dorman]

Following on from another thread about fuel.......

 

With the proposed introduction of low sulphur red fuel I can foresee us people with vintage engines having a problem!

 

Unlike when lead was removed from petrol...where suppliers came up with lead additives for older engines without hardened valve seats....I dont think the market in vintage diesel engines will be big enough for this to happen.....soooo....

 

What ideas do people have as a replacement for the sulphur? As I understand it its needed to lubricate the injector pump....so would a monograde oil work??....if so how much would you need to add??...would this make the exhaust even more smokey?? (not that my JP smokes you understand!!!...ahem)

 

Why cant the powers that be stop tinkering with stuff that has been fine....

 

My JP pump (made by C.A.V.) has oil in it to lube the cams but I guess the sulphur lubes other parts.....

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

Ive already had problems. Amazon has a CAV pump Model BEP pneumatic governor type feeding my 3 cylinder 1954 Dorman and ran it on white diesel low sulphur for a while as it was free! The fuel pump started to leak and was quite worn anyway (But didnt leak). The company who over hauled it said that it was advisable to use an additive if using low sulphur diesel as it can lead to lack of lubrication-and knacker the seals and cause wear on the moving parts.

 

I use Millers fuel additive off ebay--all OK and no smoke--smelly in the bottle tho and use Red diesel anyway but this stopped any furthar problems until used up the free white low sulphur stuff.

 

By the way no smoke change with any of the diesel+adds used once hot.

 

Hope that helps those who havent suffered yet with older egines and the dreaded low sulphur stuff comes on line

 

Simon.

[BEngo]

Following on from another thread about fuel.......

 

With the proposed introduction of low sulphur red fuel I can foresee us people with vintage engines having a problem!

 

Unlike when lead was removed from petrol...where suppliers came up with lead additives for older engines without hardened valve seats....I dont think the market in vintage diesel engines will be big enough for this to happen.....soooo....

 

What ideas do people have as a replacement for the sulphur? As I understand it its needed to lubricate the injector pump....so would a monograde oil work??....if so how much would you need to add??...would this make the exhaust even more smokey?? (not that my JP smokes you understand!!!...ahem)

 

Why cant the powers that be stop tinkering with stuff that has been fine....

 

My JP pump (made by C.A.V.) has oil in it to lube the cams but I guess the sulphur lubes other parts.....

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

 

(Otherwise I might just have to buy a 1000l IBC tank and get good old fashioned Gas Oil.........oh a a few jerry cans....)

 

Edited to add that if I've plonked this in the wrong forum....and I think I may have....please feel free to move!!...I blame my dongle!!

#

 

The sulphur content improves the lubricating properties of the fuel and is most useful in the injector and injector pump where there are close tolerance moving parts with very little clearance. Lubrication of these items is difficult anyway because they are in stop-start motion.

 

The reason the sulphur is being removed (and the fuel then lubricates less well) is because it combusts to produce sulphur oxides (SO2 and SO3) which eventually form sulphuric acid. this causes corrosion inside the engine and falls as acid rain once it enters the atmosphere. SOx is also not good to breathe in and is implicated in asthma and various other lung problems.

 

Once upon a time, in a previous existence about 10 years ago I was responsible for a large and expensive collection of small military aircraft engines. The fuel boffins discovered that Sulphur was being removed from aviation fuel by the latest refining process and that there was a possibility of faster wear to the moving parts in the fuel pump and metering equipment. There was no certainty as to what the effects actually might be, but it was agreed that the tribological properies of the fuel were differeent and the lubricity was lower. After much debate the solution was to add a lubricity additive to the fuel as it was dispensed from the bulk tanks into the bowsers and hydrants.

 

Even after this had been done there was no restriction placed on engine operation on undosed fuel, such as might be picked up from another host nation, though instructions weree issued to ships on how to dose bulk fuel if they received a tank-full of aviation fuel with no additive. ( It was something like mix the required quantity of lubricity additive (Pints per tonne of Av fuel) with some clean fuel in a clean bucket and pour it in through the tank dip tube). Lubricity additive was not toxic, unlike the stuff which stopped water precipitataing and ice forming in the fuel.

 

However this is all somewhat historic, though the lubrication principles certainly apply to elderly designs of fuel injection equipment such as is found on the Lister JP, and my Kelvin J, among a long list. I have Googled fairly extensively on the subject and as far as I can tell modern engines have exactly the same requirements for lubricity. Having also worked for a company which made modern diesel injector components for a mass market car application, as well as sprayer nozzles for what was a well known bus and boat engine maker I know the tolerances and clearances for the modern kit are smaller. ULSD (in white) is definitely treated with lubricity additives. It therefore seems likely that the ULS "red" diesel on the market already contains lubricity additives (because it is diesel with red or green dye and chemical markers, depending on where you live).

 

I agree ULS red Diesel is not necessarily the same as ULS Gas Oil. However, the oil additive companies all have extensive lists of additives (Google lubricity additives) and it should be possible to buy relatively small quantities so that you (or our waterside suppliers) can dose their own tanks if it turns out to be necessary. In the mean while a small quantity of clean monograde lub oil in the diesel will set you mind at rest, but not so much it makes the JP smoke!

 

N

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

Once upon a time, in a previous existence about 10 years ago I was responsible for a large and expensive collection of small military aircraft engines. The fuel boffins discovered that Sulphur was being removed from aviation fuel by the latest refining process and that there was a possibility of faster wear to the moving parts in the fuel pump and metering equipment. There was no certainty as to what the effects actually might be, but it was agreed that the tribological properies of the fuel were differeent and the lubricity was lower. After much debate the solution was to add a lubricity additive to the fuel as it was dispensed from the bulk tanks into the bowsers and hydrants.

 

Even after this had been done there was no restriction placed on engine operation on undosed fuel, such as might be picked up from another host nation, though instructions weree issued to ships on how to dose bulk fuel if they received a tank-full of aviation fuel with no additive. ( It was something like mix the required quantity of lubricity additive (Pints per tonne of Av fuel) with some clean fuel in a clean bucket and pour it in through the tank dip tube). Lubricity additive was not toxic, unlike the stuff which stopped water precipitataing and ice forming in the fuel.

 

<snip>

N

 

As an aside, as an apprentice the aircraft jet fuel systems were tested using pure naptha specifically because it has very low lubricity. If the pumps and systems could survive that, they'd survive anything.

 

Richard

 

They were not diesel engines of course

[casper ghost]

My Ruston states it can run on paraffin so maybe that'll be the answer. I can buy paraffin here cheaper than canal-side red diesel is sold.

[ditchcrawler]

Following on from another thread about fuel.......

 

With the proposed introduction of low sulphur red fuel I can foresee us people with vintage engines having a problem!

 

Unlike when lead was removed from petrol...where suppliers came up with lead additives for older engines without hardened valve seats....I dont think the market in vintage diesel engines will be big enough for this to happen.....soooo....

 

What ideas do people have as a replacement for the sulphur? As I understand it its needed to lubricate the injector pump....so would a monograde oil work??....if so how much would you need to add??...would this make the exhaust even more smokey?? (not that my JP smokes you understand!!!...ahem)

 

Why cant the powers that be stop tinkering with stuff that has been fine....

 

My JP pump (made by C.A.V.) has oil in it to lube the cams but I guess the sulphur lubes other parts.....

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

(Otherwise I might just have to buy a 1000l IBC tank and get good old fashioned Gas Oil.........oh a a few jerry cans....)

 

Edited to add that if I've plonked this in the wrong forum....and I think I may have....please feel free to move!!...I blame my dongle!!

So how do all the boaters on the continent manage who have to use "white" diesel manage, and some of them have old engines

[nb Innisfree]

So how do all the boaters on the continent manage who have to use "white" diesel manage, and some of them have old engines

 

Good question, I never thought of that.

[Grace and Favour]

So how do all the boaters on the continent manage who have to use "white" diesel manage, and some of them have old engines

 

I'm sure our colleagues on the DBA could answer

[J R]

Following on from another thread about fuel.......

 

With the proposed introduction of low sulphur red fuel I can foresee us people with vintage engines having a problem!

 

Unlike when lead was removed from petrol...where suppliers came up with lead additives for older engines without hardened valve seats....I dont think the market in vintage diesel engines will be big enough for this to happen.....soooo....

 

What ideas do people have as a replacement for the sulphur? As I understand it its needed to lubricate the injector pump....so would a monograde oil work??....if so how much would you need to add??...would this make the exhaust even more smokey?? (not that my JP smokes you understand!!!...ahem)

 

Why cant the powers that be stop tinkering with stuff that has been fine....

 

My JP pump (made by C.A.V.) has oil in it to lube the cams but I guess the sulphur lubes other parts.....

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

(Otherwise I might just have to buy a 1000l IBC tank and get good old fashioned Gas Oil.........oh a a few jerry cans....)

 

Edited to add that if I've plonked this in the wrong forum....and I think I may have....please feel free to move!!...I blame my dongle!!

 

 

Gas oil is actually red diesel. It has to be sulphur free by January 2011. This is due to strict new EU emission standards and will apply to all inland waterways vessels. It will also contain up to 7% biofuel. It will cause problems to older pipes, seals etc on older installations. Some boatyards are selling the 'new' stuff now and some propblems are coming to light already.

 

People think that red diesel is road diesel with red dye in it. This is not always the case. Two types are currently available. One is gas oil and the other is low sulphur gas oil (road type) with red dye in, and conforms to BS EN 590. For those with Webastos and Eberspachers this will have the benefit of fewer breakdowns!

 

There are a number of issues with the low sulphur stuff. Biodiesel can oxidise and can precipitate the formation of solids and is more prone to to bacterial contamination. Many pipes and seals etc on installations are not compatable with biodiesel. Fuel tanks have to be water free. It can disolve the crud in your tank and if the filter does not pick it up will block the injectors.

 

I for one will be glad when this all comes in as there will be a uniform quality of fuel supplied by boatyards. Have been buying white diesel for some time as I am fed up with being supplied with diesel from some boatyards/marinas that has caused so many problems in the past. Also carry the HMRC definitaive notes on board in case some unscruplous diesel dealer trys to pull a fast one with the 60/40 bit. Have a modern diesel engine but can fully sympathise with those of you who have proper classic engines. Guess it is some transition into a different era that you will have to go through just as the folks who own classic cars had to work through when good old 3star and 4star petrol was phased out. Wasn't going to mention 2star as it would make me look old.

[Iain_S]

(Big Snip)

.........when good old 3star and 4star petrol was phased out. Wasn't going to mention 2star as it would make me look old.

 

IIRC, 3 star was blended at the pump from 2 star and 4 star. The loss of 5 star caused a few problems to high compression engines, though.