John Seymour and Water Willow

[Chertsey]

Interesting that the Battersea thread has come back up with mention of Water Vole and Water Buck, but I was going to ask this anyway...

 

I'm currently rereading John Seymour's Voyage into England, which is a lovely book. In 1963 he hires Water Willow from BW; according to him it's the front end of a Grand Union boat cut down to 40' (on which he spends four months with wife, three daughters and a lurcher!).

 

Just wondered if anyone knew what the boat was, and if it's extant, where and in what state it's in now.

 

I highly recommend the book and from his Guardian obit, which I found last time I read Voyage into England, Seymour sounds like a splendid, and eccentric, chap.

[Hairy-Neil]

Just wondered if anyone knew what the boat was, and if it's extant, where and in what state it's in now.

 

Water Willow was the stern half of Star Class Little Woolwich Butty, Indus. (going backwards) It has now been restored as a full length working motor boat with new build other half. I believe its called 'Indus Too'.

 

BTW, the original forend of Indus became the BW hire boat, Water Reed.

Edited December 8, 2007 by Hairy-Neil

[AMModels]

Neil, how many of the BW hire boats can you remember/name with reference to cut down working boats and also for the new section on my site how many of the early purpose built BW boats can you or anyone name.

[Hairy-Neil]

Water Arabis = Arabia

Water Bullrush = Hare

Water Crocus = ???

Water Daffodil = ???

Water Erica = ??? FMC (f)

Water Fern = ???

Water Gentian = ??? (FMC f)

Water Hyacinth = ??? LMS (f)

Water Iris = Auora (f)

Water Ivy = ??? LMS (s)

Water Lilac = Antony (f)

Watter Lilly = Ostrich (f)

Water Lupin = Gorse (f)

Water Reed = Indus (f)

Water Valiant = Enceladus (f)

Water Violet = Auora (s)

Water Viper = ???

Water Vixen = Antlea (f)

Water Vole = Kelso (f)

Water Willow + Indus (s)

 

 

Water ??? = Jackal (f)

 

Edited to add Water Valiant/Enceladus

Edited December 10, 2007 by Hairy-Neil

[Hairy-Neil]

Then there were the Zoo Buses and similar conversions of full length....

Water Buck = Perseus

Water Fairy = Denebola

Water Kelpie = Themis

Water Nymph = Southern Cross

Water Ouzle = Sun

Water Rambler = Star

Water Spright = Pisces

Water Wagtail = Corolla

 

My first time ever on a narrow boat was on one of the zoo buses, circa. 1963 I have a photo showing my sister standing at the front of one of them, an unidentified Little Woolwich Motor.

[Timleech]

Then there were the Zoo Buses and similar conversions of full length....

Water Buck = Perseus

Water Fairy = Denebola

Water Kelpie = Themis

Water Nymph = Southern Cross

Water Ouzle = Sun

Water Rambler = Star

Water Spright = Pisces

Water Wagtail = Corolla

 

My first time ever on a narrow boat was on one of the zoo buses, circa. 1963 I have a photo showing my sister standing at the front of one of them, an unidentified Little Woolwich Motor.

 

There was also the Water Lapwing = Lapwing,

as well as two or three wide boat conversions, Water Wanderer was I believe a Lincoln sized Keel which worked on the Trent as a hotel barge. Also there was a trip boat based around Leeds whose 'Water' name eludes me for the moment though I seem to remember it was a 'West Country' sized iron keel of rivetted 'planked' style construction, I don't think I ever knew their original names.

 

 

edited to add the above pic of Water Lapwing

edited to add that I think the Water Gentian was the Antony (I ought to be more certain, I have worked on it).

Also a separate comment on Andy's lists, the Gambia and Siberia had both been cut down by British Waterways to use as tunnel boats/hoppers, but at opposite ends. The Gambia was absolutely sha**ed, I cut the fore-end to match the profile at which the Siberia had been chopped, scrapped the rest, & united them (in the water!) into one full-length boat. This was later sold to Tim Higton & he converted her to use as an upmarket camping boat which he called Gambia, strictly it should have been the Siberia.

 

Also maybe should be noted that both these boats were horse boats which had been motorised by Yarwoods.

 

Tim

Edited December 9, 2007 by Timleech

[Hairy-Neil]

The story of the Little Northwich motor 'Antlia' is an interesting one.

 

It was cut in half, the front half of it becoming the Hire boat Vixen as mentioned above. The stern became a tug/ice breaker??? renamed Tardebigge. In the early/mid 1990s they came into the same ownership and the guy had Steve Priest at Warwickshire Fly reunite the two halves and the boat was restored to working appearance, though I believe it is fitted out under cloths.

 

I understand the off cuts were not scrapped, but joined up with some new steel to make another boat.

[Paul H]

The story of the Little Northwich motor 'Antlia' is an interesting one.

 

It was cut in half, the front half of it becoming the Hire boat Vixen as mentioned above. The stern became a tug/ice breaker??? renamed Tardebigge. In the early/mid 1990s they came into the same ownership and the guy had Steve Priest at Warwickshire Fly reunite the two halves and the boat was restored to working appearance, though I believe it is fitted out under cloths.

 

I understand the off cuts were not scrapped, but joined up with some new steel to make another boat.

 

Thought you might be interested in what the bits left over look like now.

http://www.campanile.co.uk/maw/images/tardebigge.jpg

although its since been repainted. Not a bad result from bits of scrap put together by John Forth.

 

Paul H

[magnetman]

Nb 'Antony' is near Rickmansworth, 45ft (approx) its a GUCCCo stern I think with a Wfbco welde bow section. Lister SR3 i think. Nice boat would make a super tug with a HRW4 or something.

[Timleech]

Nb 'Antony' is near Rickmansworth, 45ft (approx) its a GUCCCo stern I think with a Wfbco welde bow section. Lister SR3 i think. Nice boat would make a super tug with a HRW4 or something.

 

And the Fore section is I believe currently on the Macclesfield canal, I think it now carries dual names (ie Antony/Water Gentian, or whichever it was)

 

Tim

[Hairy-Neil]

And the Fore section is I believe currently on the Macclesfield canal, I think it now carries dual names (ie Antony/Water Gentian, or whichever it was)

 

Tim

 

Which half have you worked on?

 

I've photographed the forend a couple of times recently (last 2 years) carrying the name Antony / Water Lilac. It still has the BW hireboat superstructure. The stern half I last photographed circa. 2000 on the southern Grand Union, quite possibly Rickmansworth as Magnetman mentions. It carries the name 'Antony' on a far more modern, possibly welded steel top, though with older style windows.

 

Incidentally, I've just flipped through my photos and see the front half of Little Northwich motor, Enceladus has similar superstructure to Water Lilac. Where does this come in?

Edited December 9, 2007 by Hairy-Neil

[Timleech]

I photographed it a couple of times recently carrying the name Antony / Water Lilac.

 

That's the one <G>

 

Tim

[Hairy-Neil]

Thought you might be interested in what the bits left over look like now.

 

Not a bad result from bits of scrap put together by John Forth.

 

Paul H

 

Looks sweet.

 

I looked over the Tardebigge when it was for sale derelict for about 5k, stood yards from the still derelict Chesterfield Canal at Rennishaw near Sheffield, I can't find the photos I took now sadly. I remember thinking there was little of the original Antlia left forward of the engine room bulkhead and that it was too big a project for me at the time. I was not visionary enough to contemplate the eventual outcome. Besides that I hadn't the cash (not the Lloyds coded welder status ) I would have needed to do it justice.

[Hobbler]

I highly recommend the book and from his Guardian obit, which I found last time I read Voyage into England, Seymour sounds like a splendid, and eccentric, chap.

 

Although nothing to do with canals I met John Seymour on several occasions in the late 70's . If I remember correctly he was then living on a smallholding in Wales and writing books about various aspects of Self Sufficiency .He was an absolutely delightful man and a really excellent and entertaining speaker.

[magnetman]

My mum knew the bloke. We used to have a sheep farm in Wales Apparently he had an overoptimistic idea of the practicality of raising livestock on a smallholding followed by slaughter then peparation of the carcass followed by dinner.

[Chris J W]

Water Willow was the stern half of Star Class Little Woolwich Butty, Indus. (going backwards) It has now been restored as a full length working motor boat with new build other half. I believe its called 'Indus Too'.

 

BTW, the original forend of Indus became the BW hire boat, Water Reed.

 

If it's the "Indus Too" I'm thinking of (now moored just above Stockers Lock) she's not a working motor boat - she's being converted to being a live-aboard. Came down with her when Baldock helped me back from Hunton Road Bridge after doing my arm in a few months back.

[magnetman]

Yes, she's had a steel 'under cloths' type cabin added and is moored at Springwell nr Rickmansworth, near to the aforementioned 'Antony' (which has a wood top, incidentally). How's the arm Chris?Yes, she's had a steel 'under cloths' type cabin added and is moored at Springwell nr Rickmansworth, near to the aforementioned 'Antony' (which has a wood top, incidentally). How's the arm Chris?Yes, she's had a steel 'under cloths' type cabin added and is moored at Springwell nr Rickmansworth, near to the aforementioned 'Antony' (which has a wood top, incidentally). How's the arm Chris?

[Timleech]

Which half have you worked on?

 

The front half.

 

I've also, 20 years ago, worked on the Water Lupin. We extended her by about 20', ISTR, after someone else had already done a pi** poor job of extending her by 6'. The 6' didn't line up well with the original, which wasn't too blatant within the 6', but there was no way we could follow that line for another 20'. The original Waterways punt stern had been replaced with a counter of sorts at the same time as the first lengthening.

 

Tim

[Chertsey]

My mum knew the bloke. We used to have a sheep farm in Wales Apparently he had an overoptimistic idea of the practicality of raising livestock on a smallholding followed by slaughter then peparation of the carcass followed by dinner.

 

Yes he is a bit starry eyed in places but that's rather nice. I really like his enthusiasm and the enjoyment he gets from it all. Thanks too for all the answers and info about the boat. So when he says (p. 12) 'Water Willow is the forward end of an old Grand Union steel narrow boat, which has been divorced from the after end, and both ends subsequently made into pleasure-boats', is he just plain (perhaps understandably) mistaken?

 

(Actually, having looked at some photos and the one half decent picture in the book, it is quite distinctly a butty back end but I guess that's not the first thing you'd think of)

 

 

Are any of these early BW conversions still extant in their converted state?

[Chris J W]

Yes, she's had a steel 'under cloths' type cabin added and is moored at Springwell nr Rickmansworth, near to the aforementioned 'Antony' (which has a wood top, incidentally). How's the arm Chris?Yes, she's had a steel 'under cloths' type cabin added and is moored at Springwell nr Rickmansworth, near to the aforementioned 'Antony' (which has a wood top, incidentally). How's the arm Chris?Yes, she's had a steel 'under cloths' type cabin added and is moored at Springwell nr Rickmansworth, near to the aforementioned 'Antony' (which has a wood top, incidentally). How's the arm Chris?

 

Blimey, Andrew - three replies for the price of one! Arm's much better, ta, but still have to be very careful about putting too much weight or twist on it.

[Hairy-Neil]

Are any of these early BW conversions still extant in their converted state?

 

Yes, Water Lilac survives in excellent repair.

 

Zoo Bus Water Ouzle was well preserved last time I saw it.....(Times do change) and last I knew was back on the zoo trade having had many years as a tripper in Braunston. Was converted for the trade in 1959 and operated till 1964.

 

If it's the "Indus Too" I'm thinking of (now moored just above Stockers Lock) she's not a working motor boat - she's being converted to being a live-aboard.

 

Times change. Here's a link to a photo of both ends of Indus reunited in their recent restored to carrying days. Sadly the photo shows the modern counter sterns rather than anything of the historic hulls.

 

I have a feeling the stem post is 'wrong' on one of them but can't remember which. Its probably the stern end so will more than likely be Indus Too has been altered to make a stern post more like a Woolwich stem post. It does stand out as odd from what I remember.

 

http://canalsidecamera.fpic.co.uk/p22081588.html

Edited December 9, 2007 by Hairy-Neil

[Chertsey]

Yes, Water Lilac survives in excellent repair.

 

Zoo Bus Water Ouzle was well preserved last time I saw it.....(Times do change) and last I knew was back on the zoo trade having had many years as a tripper in Braunston. Was converted for the trade in 1959 and operated till 1964.

Times change. Here's a link to a photo of both ends of Indus reunited in their recent restored to carrying days. Sadly the photo shows the modern counter sterns rather than anything of the historic hulls.

 

I have a feeling the stem post is 'wrong' on one of them but can't remember which. Its probably the stern end so will more than likely be Indus Too has been altered to make a stern post more like a Woolwich stem post. It does stand out as odd from what I remember.

 

http://canalsidecamera.fpic.co.uk/p22081588.html

 

Ah yes, I've seen Water Ouzel at Camden Locks last year. Just written about Voyage into England on my blog http://nbwarrior.blogspot.com/ Thanks for the info!

[David Schweizer]

I used to help work Pisces (Water Sprite), immediately after she was sold by BW to the London Borough of Hillingdon in 1964. Apart fron the seats having been removed and having her original name re-painted onto the Bows, she was in exactly the same condition as when she was Zoo Bus, complete with cloth roll down sides

 

Unfortunately she had been somewhat butchered by BW, the Boatman's cabin had been gutted and the Engine had been re-located in there, whilst the engine room had been converted to accomodate a toilet and galley, and a huge immitation Liner Funnel had been welded onto the back Cabin roof to accomodate the Gas bottle.

 

The engine was a 36hp Turner V4 with a Paragon reduction gearbox. we were given to understand that this very powerful engine had ben installed during the War when she was requistioned as a Fire boat on the Thames, but I have never found any evidence to confirm that story.

 

Pisces has had three new cabins since those days, the latest being by Dave Thomas restoring the correct back end configuration. She is still operating as a Community boat and is based at Harefield with the Hillingdon Narrowboat Trust.

Edited December 10, 2007 by David Schweizer

[Timleech]

I used to help work Pisces (Water Sprite), immediately after she was sold by BW to the London Borough of Hillingdon in 1964. Apart fron the seats having been removed and having her original name re-painted onto the Bows, she was in exactly the same condition as when she was Zoo Bus, complete with cloth roll down sides

 

Unfortunately she had been somewhat butchered by BW, the Boatman's cabin had been gutted and the Engine had been re-located in there, whilst the engine room had been converted to accomodate a toilet and galley, and a huge immitation Liner Funnel had been welded onto the back Cabin roof to accomodate the Gas bottle.

 

The engine was a 36hp Turner V4 with a Paragon reduction gearbox. we were given to understand that this very powerful engine had ben installed during the War when she was requistioned as a Fire boat on the Thames, but I have never found any evidence to confirm that story.

 

That sounds very similar to the Lapwing, which I used to steer, sometimes sharing duties with Charlie Atkins or working the bar while he did the boating.

At that time she was very little different from how she was in the pic I posted, still with wooden slatted seats. The funnel in this case wasn't huge, just big enough for a 10lb butane bottle. We did have to have the roof full of lifebuoys 2 deep, as the trips were often down the Lift and onto the Weaver.

The engine was a derated Lister HA2, limited to about 15 hp @ 1200 rpm IIRC, but it would only just achieve that with its Nationals blade anyway. She would fly on the river, though

 

Tim

(also one time owner of Themis (Water Kelpie), though after she was converted for living aboard).

[David Schweizer]

Yes the picture is very similar, with a Plywood top bolted to tubular steel frames, but the funnel on Lapwing looks smaller. There is a pictuie of Pisces in Hugh Potters book " the last Number Ones" taken at the Stratford IWA rally in 1964 still in her "Zoo Bus" condition.(Funnel not visible) A similar photo appeared in Waterways World a couple of years ago. I am not in those photos but I recognised most of the people in it..

Edited December 10, 2007 by David Schweizer