Interesting site of unknown places

[Laurence Hogg]

Spent an interesting hour or so on this site, found by accident. The Manchester tunnels connecting to the Irwell are intriguing: http://www.myspace.com/phill.d/blog/370805665

Having passed these arches by boat I always wondered!

Edited October 12, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[John Holden]

Spent an interesting hour or so on this site, found by accident. The Manchester tunnels connecting to the Irwell are intriguing: http://www.myspace.com/phill.d/blog/370805665

Having passed these arches by boat I always wondered!

 

The tunnels around the cathedral are pretty well documented, slightly less so are the Coop tunnels spreading out from the Coop headquarters on Corporation Street to stores around the centre. Some of them used for road vehicles and some used as wine cellars.

There are a couple of more direct canal interest, one that appears as a wharf just above lock 91 on the Rochdale which is actually an opened out tunnel that went from the Grocers Warehouse on the Bridgewater to their yard on Bridgewater Street, until the Rochdale was dug and cut through the tunnel.

 

Another is Bank Top tunnel that was built to take water from the Ashton canal, to the River Medlock, before the Rochdale connected up to the Bridgewater. There were some claims at the time that it was built as a navigable sough but I doubt that. It was supposed to have been abandoned because it silted up but there is no evidence that that ever happened and it was rather unlikely that Egerton and his chief engineer Gilbert, would have allowed that to happen.

[the grinch]

seen most of these before on subterranea but hadn't seen the Leeds tram section so thanks for posting the link

[RLWP]

And an hour for me too, including a diversion into the Camden 'catacombs'

 

I'm sure I've seen some other sites doing subterranean reports, including canals and mines

 

Richard

[carlt]

You've got Urbex, 28DaysLater and for international stuff Talk Urbex

[Pluto]

The tunnels around the cathedral are pretty well documented, slightly less so are the Coop tunnels spreading out from the Coop headquarters on Corporation Street to stores around the centre. Some of them used for road vehicles and some used as wine cellars.

There are a couple of more direct canal interest, one that appears as a wharf just above lock 91 on the Rochdale which is actually an opened out tunnel that went from the Grocers Warehouse on the Bridgewater to their yard on Bridgewater Street, until the Rochdale was dug and cut through the tunnel.

 

Another is Bank Top tunnel that was built to take water from the Ashton canal, to the River Medlock, before the Rochdale connected up to the Bridgewater. There were some claims at the time that it was built as a navigable sough but I doubt that. It was supposed to have been abandoned because it silted up but there is no evidence that that ever happened and it was rather unlikely that Egerton and his chief engineer Gilbert, would have allowed that to happen.

The old Bridgewater arm you mention served a shaft for raising coal in boxes to a coal yard in what is now Liverpool Road. The arm/wharf off the Rochdale is at the wrong level, so not an opened out section, as the tunnel was at Bridgewater Canal level. There may be remains of the tunnel under the arm and towards Liverpool Road.

 

The Bank Top tunnel was definitely built and used by the Bridgewater, again to serve a shaft up which coal boxes were lifted to a coal yard near what became London Road (PIccadilly) Station. A commemorative mug was produced illustrating the site, and there is also documentary evidence. There was a gate for boats in the Medlock weir above Castlefield. The tunnel subsequently may have become the route for water off the Ashton, though the canal's opening was tied in with the opening of the Rochdale locks in Manchester, which opened before the rest of the Lancashire section of that canal.

[John Holden]

The old Bridgewater arm you mention served a shaft for raising coal in boxes to a coal yard in what is now Liverpool Road. The arm/wharf off the Rochdale is at the wrong level, so not an opened out section, as the tunnel was at Bridgewater Canal level. There may be remains of the tunnel under the arm and towards Liverpool Road.

 

The Bank Top tunnel was definitely built and used by the Bridgewater, again to serve a shaft up which coal boxes were lifted to a coal yard near what became London Road (PIccadilly) Station. A commemorative mug was produced illustrating the site, and there is also documentary evidence. There was a gate for boats in the Medlock weir above Castlefield. The tunnel subsequently may have become the route for water off the Ashton, though the canal's opening was tied in with the opening of the Rochdale locks in Manchester, which opened before the rest of the Lancashire section of that canal.

 

No, not Liverpool Road! Bridgewater Street runs parallel to Liverpool Road, the yard can be seen on early OS maps. The Rochdale cut through the tunnel at the height of the rise on lock 92, hence the opened out tunnel, if you look down the arm you can see where the tunnel continues under Castlefield.

 

I very much doubt that the Bank Top tunnel was built as a commercial enterprise, two years for skilled miners to dig a 600 yard tunnel! I think its prime purpose was to collect water from the Ashton to supplement the supply from the Medlock!

 

I'd be interested in seeing that mug, is it displayed anywhere?

[Pluto]

No, not Liverpool Road! Bridgewater Street runs parallel to Liverpool Road, the yard can be seen on early OS maps. The Rochdale cut through the tunnel at the height of the rise on lock 92, hence the opened out tunnel, if you look down the arm you can see where the tunnel continues under Castlefield.

 

I very much doubt that the Bank Top tunnel was built as a commercial enterprise, two years for skilled miners to dig a 600 yard tunnel! I think its prime purpose was to collect water from the Ashton to supplement the supply from the Medlock!

 

I'd be interested in seeing that mug, is it displayed anywhere?

If, as you suggest, it wasn't worth excavating the tunnel for commercial purposes, it certainly would not have been worthwhile just for excess water off the Ashton Canal.

 

Below is a map of land sold off in central Manchester by the Bridgewater which shows the site of the coal yard. I am not sure where the mug is today, but it was illustrated in an article about Manchester which I have a photocopy of somewhere in my collection. I wrote the following around 2002 after I had researched the Worsley mine system in a heritage report for the local authority. Most of the information came from Frank Mullineaux's papers and from contemporary reports.

 

In 1765, when the Duke of Bridgewater opened his canal from Worsley, the Manchester terminus was at Castlefields, almost a mile from the centre of the town. (It is important to remember that canals were built on cheaper land away from the centre of towns, and that this influenced the subsequent development of commercial operations) In order to bring coal closer to the town by boat, the River Medlock was made navigable up to a point near the junction of Princess and Whitworth Streets. (The passage in the weir above Castlefield is well documented and illustrated) From there a tunnel was dug in 1787 some 649 yards towards Piccadilly. At Shooters Brow, close to Piccadilly Station, there was a coal yard connected to the tunnel by a shaft. Coal was raised in baskets from boats by a winch. The tunnel closed around 1805 after the opening of the Rochdale Canal, the coal yard then being served by an arm from the canal.

[John Holden]

First of all, the coal yard that saw the termination of the Bank Top tunnel was not the Dukes yard, it was the wharf of Knowles and Son, colliery owners. It was situated in the Ashton Canal basin, the part later covered over by extensions to London Road (formerly Bank Top) station. It was not the yard served by the arm shown on your map, it would have been around that parcel of land numbered 297 (?) to the east of London Road.

 

The Bridgewater terminated at Castlefield not because of the cheapness of the land (hardly a factor in those days) but because to have taken it further would have meant building locks and finding the water for those locks.

 

I'm surprised that you don't think it worthwhile for Egerton to have tunnelled for water!

[Pluto]

First of all, the coal yard that saw the termination of the Bank Top tunnel was not the Dukes yard, it was the wharf of Knowles and Son, colliery owners. It was situated in the Ashton Canal basin, the part later covered over by extensions to London Road (formerly Bank Top) station. It was not the yard served by the arm shown on your map, it would have been around that parcel of land numbered 297 (?) to the east of London Road.

 

The Bridgewater terminated at Castlefield not because of the cheapness of the land (hardly a factor in those days) but because to have taken it further would have meant building locks and finding the water for those locks.

 

I'm surprised that you don't think it worthwhile for Egerton to have tunnelled for water!

The coal yard site was certainly 297, as the others were opened post the opening of the Rochdale. Why would anyone have tunnelled for water from the Ashton, when it would have come down the Rochdale anyway. There were only two years between the Ashton opening and the Rochdale's Manchester locks, with construction work progressing at the same time. The existing tunnel was used during these two years, and it encouraged the Rochdale to make a better deal with the Ashton. The Ashton water subsequently passed down the Rochdale into the Bridgewater.

 

The coal yard may well have been operated by Knowles & Son after the Ashton opened, but it was on Bridgewater property, and prior to the Ashton opening, was part of Bridgewater's operations. This 1790s map confirms this:

[John Holden]

I wonder then if Knowles was actually owned by the Duke?

 

BTW, my main interest in the tunnel was/is the spurious but oft repeated claim that the tunnel was abandoned because it silted up!

Edited October 14, 2012 by John Holden

[Pluto]

I wonder then if Knowles was actually owned by the Duke?

 

BTW, my main interest in the tunnel was/is the spurious but oft repeated claim that the tunnel was abandoned because it silted up!

They could have been Wigan/Leigh colliery owners, the firm becoming Pearson & Knowles with boats based on the L&LC, though they may have been coal owners from off the Ashton Canal around Oldham, given the location of the yard.

[John Holden]

They could have been Wigan/Leigh colliery owners, the firm becoming Pearson & Knowles with boats based on the L&LC, though they may have been coal owners from off the Ashton Canal around Oldham, given the location of the yard.

 

The early history of Knowles and Sons is a bit vague, but before 1810 Knowles operated in Bolton, Darcy Lever and Great Lever But as I say, not too clear, they were the largest company in the Manchester coalfield by the end of the 19th century.

[billh]

If, as you suggest, it wasn't worth excavating the tunnel for commercial purposes, it certainly would not have been worthwhile just for excess water off the Ashton Canal.

 

Below is a map of land sold off in central Manchester by the Bridgewater which shows the site of the coal yard. I am not sure where the mug is today, but it was illustrated in an article about Manchester which I have a photocopy of somewhere in my collection. I wrote the following around 2002 after I had researched the Worsley mine system in a heritage report for the local authority. Most of the information came from Frank Mullineaux's papers and from contemporary reports.

 

In 1765, when the Duke of Bridgewater opened his canal from Worsley, the Manchester terminus was at Castlefields, almost a mile from the centre of the town. (It is important to remember that canals were built on cheaper land away from the centre of towns, and that this influenced the subsequent development of commercial operations) In order to bring coal closer to the town by boat, the River Medlock was made navigable up to a point near the junction of Princess and Whitworth Streets. (The passage in the weir above Castlefield is well documented and illustrated) From there a tunnel was dug in 1787 some 649 yards towards Piccadilly. At Shooters Brow, close to Piccadilly Station, there was a coal yard connected to the tunnel by a shaft. Coal was raised in baskets from boats by a winch. The tunnel closed around 1805 after the opening of the Rochdale Canal, the coal yard then being served by an arm from the canal.

The entrance to the tunnel to Bank Top can still be seen on the North bank of the Medlock at the rear of India House on Whitworth St. Only the top of the arch is above normal river level, which suggests that the river has silted up considerably in the last 200 years.I can't remember where I read about this tunnel but it was said that 2 boats of the "Starvationer" type were discovered just inside around 1880 when some civil engineering work , possibly for the construction of India House, was being carried out.

As an aside, the aqueduct on the Ashton Canal at Store St was originally over the Shooter's brook, not a street. The brook is now below the street and still provides a conduit to take water from the Ashton Canal via the Meadow St trunk . This was used when the canal needed to be drained but also to prevent the Rochdale Canal Co receiving any surplus water from the Ashton.

Bill

[John Holden]

The entrance to the tunnel to Bank Top can still be seen on the North bank of the Medlock at the rear of India House on Whitworth St. Only the top of the arch is above normal river level, which suggests that the river has silted up considerably in the last 200 years.I can't remember where I read about this tunnel but it was said that 2 boats of the "Starvationer" type were discovered just inside around 1880 when some civil engineering work , possibly for the construction of India House, was being carried out.

As an aside, the aqueduct on the Ashton Canal at Store St was originally over the Shooter's brook, not a street. The brook is now below the street and still provides a conduit to take water from the Ashton Canal via the Meadow St trunk . This was used when the canal needed to be drained but also to prevent the Rochdale Canal Co receiving any surplus water from the Ashton.

Bill

 

Argh! What proof of anything that happened in the last 200 years is a wall built in the early 20th century? The present out let from the tunnel isn't even near the original outlet.

India House wasn't built until the early 1900s.

[billh]

Argh! What proof of anything that happened in the last 200 years is a wall built in the early 20th century? The present out let from the tunnel isn't even near the original outlet.

India House wasn't built until the early 1900s.

OK, I must be wrong,I was once before. the visible arch couldn't possibly be a c20th re-built outlet for the once navigable tunnel, acting as a drain for the surrounding area? Pluto says the Medlock was made navigable to near Princess St/Whitworth St, so, just where was the tunnel entrance? The one I've seen is only a matter of yards from the junction of those streets. What about the report of boats found in there, is that fiction as well?

[John Holden]

OK, I must be wrong,I was once before. the visible arch couldn't possibly be a c20th re-built outlet for the once navigable tunnel, acting as a drain for the surrounding area? Pluto says the Medlock was made navigable to near Princess St/Whitworth St, so, just where was the tunnel entrance? The one I've seen is only a matter of yards from the junction of those streets. What about the report of boats found in there, is that fiction as well?

 

Sorry for my rather brusque response.

 

According to plans held by United Utilities it appears that the tunnel originally exited either under India House or under the not yet built Whitworth Street. The plans show an offset to the tunnel in the last fifteen or twenty yards before it enters the Medlock, the remainder of the tunnel being in a dead straight line.

So yes, you could say that the present outlet is a rebuild but it was built to match the demands of the day rather than the original demands.

 

There are enough reports of boats being abandoned in the tunnel for them to be taken seriously, but that doesn't prove that the tunnel was built solely or even primarily for navigation.

[Pluto]

Paul Sillitoe has done a lot of research into the terminal arrangements at Castlefields, including the various navigable tunnels. His research was written up in his dissertation on the Castlefield Canal Basin 1763-1805 for a Diploma at Ironbridge. He states with regard to Bank Top Tunnel:

 

In contrast to the first subterraneous canal (the one below the Rochdale Canal and extended from the water wheel pit at Castlefield), for which no Account entries have been found, the construction of this tunnel is beautifully recorded (in the Bridgewater Collieries General Account Book in the Lancs Record Office)

1787 For driving 222 yards in the Navigable Sough Level at Manchester which was begun 17th April 1787.…

1789 For driving 66 yards… and for sinking Pits upon the same.

 

Dimensions are recorded in the Worsley Yard Book (Bridgewater Estates Archives), and the tunnel's first use was reported in the Manchester Mercury of 21st April 1789, with three boats delivering coal to Bank Top.

 

There is no doubt that this tunnel was built for and used by boats for carrying coal.

[John Holden]

Paul Sillitoe has done a lot of research into the terminal arrangements at Castlefields, including the various navigable tunnels. His research was written up in his dissertation on the Castlefield Canal Basin 1763-1805 for a Diploma at Ironbridge. He states with regard to Bank Top Tunnel:

 

In contrast to the first subterraneous canal (the one below the Rochdale Canal and extended from the water wheel pit at Castlefield), for which no Account entries have been found, the construction of this tunnel is beautifully recorded (in the Bridgewater Collieries General Account Book in the Lancs Record Office)

1787 For driving 222 yards in the Navigable Sough Level at Manchester which was begun 17th April 1787.…

1789 For driving 66 yards… and for sinking Pits upon the same.

 

Dimensions are recorded in the Worsley Yard Book (Bridgewater Estates Archives), and the tunnel's first use was reported in the Manchester Mercury of 21st April 1789, with three boats delivering coal to Bank Top.

 

There is no doubt that this tunnel was built for and used by boats for carrying coal.

 

But you are talking about the tunnel under the Rochdale (or bisected by the Rochdale), and then right at the end switching to Bank Top tunnel!

I don't dispute that coal was moved through Bank Top tunnel, just that it's primary purpose wasn't to move coal. They aren't and never were the same tunnel.

[Pluto]

But you are talking about the tunnel under the Rochdale (or bisected by the Rochdale), and then right at the end switching to Bank Top tunnel!

I don't dispute that coal was moved through Bank Top tunnel, just that it's primary purpose wasn't to move coal. They aren't and never were the same tunnel.

I am talking about Bank Top tunnel, and it was built by the Duke to serve the coal yard at Bank Top. There arenow two tunnels on this line, and, historically, the confusion arises because Shooters Brook was covered shortly after the Duke built his tunnel, and subsequent discussions have often not differentiated between the two tunnels. There are several letters published in the press in the 1870s from which this confusion emerged. However, the Duke's estate records concerning the land purchased at Bank Top, state that: The Duke made an underground tunnel along the course of Shooters Brook in Manchester, to convey coal from his Canal at Manchester to Bank Top, Manchester. Contemporary maps show the coal yard as in existance prior to Shooters Brook being covered over.

 

The copies of the Duke's deeds for the Bank Top land show that this was purchased specifically as a terminus for the Duke's tunnel from the Medlock to Bank Top, and not for any other purpose.

[John Holden]

 

The copies of the Duke's deeds for the Bank Top land show that this was purchased specifically as a terminus for the Duke's tunnel from the Medlock to Bank Top, and not for any other purpose.

 

Well what other purpose would he have been likely to buy the land for other than terminating his tunnel?

 

I still have this problem that if he built the tunnel primarily as a carrier, why did it take two years, cutting on six faces. Why was no use made to use water to move boats as was done in the Worsley mines, instead relying on legging boats in and out.

Edited October 16, 2012 by John Holden

[Pluto]

Well what other purpose would he have been likely to buy the land for other than terminating his tunnel?

 

I still have this problem that if he built the tunnel primarily as a carrier, why did it take two years, cutting on six faces. Why was no use made to use water to move boats as was done in the Worsley mines, instead relying on legging boats in and out.

On the former, the Duke was short of miners as he did advertise outside of Lancashire for them, so perhaps did not employ that many building the tunnel, which was not the most important part of his canal development. On the latter, there was some suggestion that water from Shooters Brook was used to drive a water wheel for raising coal at Bank Top, though I have no definite archive material on this. If it did happen, or if the tunnel was used for water off the Ashton Canal, the flow would have been in the wrong direction to help loaded boats, so they relied instead upon legging. The Worsley system had stops for creating water flow to help loaded boats exiting the tunnels, and these had to be closed to allow empty boats to be worked into the mine using the chains along the top of the tunnels. In effect, the opposite of the conditions at Bank Top. At Worsley, the water level in the mine was lowered to allow empty boats to pass into the mine, and raised to allow loaded ones to exit.

[John Holden]

On the former, the Duke was short of miners as he did advertise outside of Lancashire for them, so perhaps did not employ that many building the tunnel, which was not the most important part of his canal development. On the latter, there was some suggestion that water from Shooters Brook was used to drive a water wheel for raising coal at Bank Top, though I have no definite archive material on this. If it did happen, or if the tunnel was used for water off the Ashton Canal, the flow would have been in the wrong direction to help loaded boats, so they relied instead upon legging. The Worsley system had stops for creating water flow to help loaded boats exiting the tunnels, and these had to be closed to allow empty boats to be worked into the mine using the chains along the top of the tunnels. In effect, the opposite of the conditions at Bank Top. At Worsley, the water level in the mine was lowered to allow empty boats to pass into the mine, and raised to allow loaded ones to exit.

 

So getting back to the idea that the tunnel was built to collect water from the Ashton!

[RLWP]

For the interested bystander, is there some way of illustrating on modern maps where this/these tunnels are/were? Otherwise, it's a fascinating discussion

 

Richard

[Pluto]

So getting back to the idea that the tunnel was built to collect water from the Ashton!

But built in 1787-1789, before the Ashton Canal got its Act. The tunnel was built for carrying coal, and was possibly used subsequently for water. Even then, it would only be needed for the two years between the Ashton opening and the Rochdale to Castlefield opening.

 

The coal wharf site circa 1785, before Shooters Brook had been covered over or the Rochdale or Ashton canals built.

 

A more recent map after the Rochdale and Ashton had been built.

 

This shows Shooters Brook in 1854 after it had been covered over, with several 'eyes', or openings to the surface. Only one is shown on the Duke's tunnel, though there could be more, or it could be the only one besides the main shaft at the end of the tunnel. By this time, of course, the upper section of the tunnel could have been filled in or collapsed. Note that the Duke's tunnel level was below that of Shooters Brook.