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Unlicenced boats!


Big Ade

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4 minutes ago, junior said:

So have i got this right - Some peoples suggestion for too many unlicensed boats, is to charge them more money?

I don't think that's quite was suggested; rather, charge more to moor in the London area, as this would help to relieve the congestion on the capital's canals.

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13 minutes ago, junior said:

So have i got this right - Some peoples suggestion for too many unlicensed boats, is to charge them more money?

Not all suggestions get thoroughly thought through...

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Interesting this and I will admit to not reading all the thread but I have just received my copy of Nabo News and it quotes CRT evasion/licence numbers and with the amount of attention London gets it still has the highest rate of licence evasion percentage wise in the country. I thought that being such a prominent location it would have been lower due to closer enforcement. 

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The main point of CRT dropping the requirement to display a valid licence is so they can keep secret the level of licence evasion, massage the figures and avoid independent scrutiny.

....Some might say.

But they haven't it is still a requirement to display unless you have seen legislation to the contrary! 

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19 minutes ago, Loddon said:

But they haven't it is still a requirement to display unless you have seen legislation to the contrary! 

I would say it is still a requirement, the letter with the 2 licences attached states that the must be displayed.  What would they even provide the licences is there was no requirement to display.

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2 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

CRT should accept that people living on boats in London is now a given and probably can not be reversed, in which case they should set aside vast lengths of tow path as long term moorings and charge £10~15k per year.  That would help with cash flow.

They would have to apply for Planning Permission first. Would they get it?

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5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The main point of CRT dropping the requirement to display a valid licence is so they can keep secret the level of licence evasion, massage the figures and avoid independent scrutiny.

....Some might say.

And how does having the requirement to display one give us the option of independent scrutiny or enable anybody other than CRT to come up with different figures for licence evasion from CRT's own?

For a start most of us have at some time held up to date licences, but what was in the window of the boat was an old one.

So any random check of any row of boats, whether on the tow-path or in a marina wouldn't be telling you a lot, would it?

3 hours ago, junior said:

So have i got this right - Some peoples suggestion for too many unlicensed boats, is to charge them more money?

No, they are saying this because if they themselves are charged even more than they currently are, they can get even more satisfaction from getting irate at those they believe to be free-loaders!

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5 hours ago, junior said:

Nope.

 

Couldn't care less about whether someone else has a license or not, or how long they stay in one place, or what their boat looks like. 

I file these thoughts under 'None of my business' and get on with my life.

I am behind junior completely on this

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5 hours ago, frangar said:

I can't help feeling that if CRT charged say £5K per year as a mooring fee on top of the licence for all the boats welded...I mean moored...to the towpath within the M25 it would go a long way to helping pay for the maintenance on the rest of the system where sensible people actually want to move.....

Perhaps they should do the same as in Dutch cities and make all the towpath moorings residential with mains connections to electricity and sewage with appropriate fees to the LA. Visiting boats would only be allowed to stop at designated visitor basins/marinas where a fee would be payable.

Keith

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5 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Perhaps they should do the same as in Dutch cities and make all the towpath moorings residential with mains connections to electricity and sewage with appropriate fees to the LA. Visiting boats would only be allowed to stop at designated visitor basins/marinas where a fee would be payable.

Keith

Although if it is done in London I wouldn't pay a fee to moor, they would have to pay me to visit it, and I don't come cheap.

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6 hours ago, Gordias said:

Letting London's canals fill up is probably the best plan they have.  It's not their responsibility, so they can't be criticized, and it will become "somebody else's problem" soon enough.  This way whoever is most unhappy and has the ability to take action will have to do all the "heavy lifting" and take the inevitable political hit, and CaRT will get what they want. 

In the meantime all they need to do is keep enough temporary moorings available for genuine navigators who want to spend a few days in London and the majority of their customers will be happy.

I suspect you may be correct.  Unfortunately having been through the crammed moorings in London it is only a matter of time before a local disaster hits, such as a fire starting on one boat that finishes up engulfing 4, 8, 20 who knows, but a lot of people could/will lose their homes, Even if everyone gets off OK the result will be a huge crack down by Local Authorities, fire service etc which may well stir the politicians into action.

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Just add £4k to the licence for any new declarations to cc. Waive 4k fee via grandfather rights to existing compliant ccers.

What do CaRT care re static boats and overcrowded waterways?. Every new static shed on the waterways is more licence money for them and "up yours" to the boaters that want to move/moor without impediment.

One reason I'm off the CaRT waterways for a while and onto other waters. 

Edited by mark99
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On 22/07/2017 at 19:13, mark99 said:

Just add £4k to the licence for any new declarations to cc. Waive 4k fee via grandfather rights to existing compliant ccers.

So if I understand you correctly you are suggesting somebody who has a boat on the Leeds liverpool and retires to CC should be charged 4K more than the guy next to him who happened to be able to start CCing a year or two earlier.

Is this what you mean?

..

Edited by Jerra
Testing time able to edit
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Don't assume that a boat displaying an out of date licence or no licence at all is unlicenced.

My attitude is that if Canal and River trust can't be bothered to send me a licence, then I can't be bothered to use my printer, ink and paper to print one. 

I am a law abiding boating but if CRT can pay their top level managers and CEO such huge saleries, they should be able to send each boater a licence when they renew. 

 

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8 hours ago, jeddlad said:

Don't assume that a boat displaying an out of date licence or no licence at all is unlicenced.

My attitude is that if Canal and River trust can't be bothered to send me a licence, then I can't be bothered to use my printer, ink and paper to print one. 

I am a law abiding boating but if CRT can pay their top level managers and CEO such huge saleries, they should be able to send each boater a licence when they renew. 

 

my licence is due for July when i am out boating for the summer so unless they contact everyone personally then the licences would be sent to an address .So i get my licence paid call into a CRT office Red Bull Basin this time where they print them off for me life is simple with no aggro .However i do not believe CRT evasion figures .

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9 hours ago, jeddlad said:

I am a law abiding boating but if CRT can pay their top level managers and CEO such huge saleries, they should be able to send each boater a licence when they renew. 

 

Warning pedant mode on!    If the law says you need to display a license and you aren't you are not a law abiding boater (strictly speaking).

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9 hours ago, jeddlad said:

My attitude is that if Canal and River trust can't be bothered to send me a licence

C&RT  DO send you a licence and, on a couple of occasions have sent me them twice (so I have 'spares')

(I agree with you that having paid them several £100 they should 'pay the £1' to post you it)

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Crt have not sent me a licence since 2014 Of course we are licenced certificated and insured, though we have a postal address.

however we have no printer ( nor the need or the space  for one) no means of running one, in either of our accommodations.

when those who are authorised wish to check they read the painted on number.

in 3 years they have contacted us once claiming we needed to move as we were rescinding our continuous cruising statement. I replied politely that if they sent me the airfare I would happily take a week off work to move the boat from her registered mooring back to her registered mooring to comply. I also rejected the terms and conditions of the continuous  cruising licence as I could not qualify...having been paying moorings for 5 years.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT  DO send you a licence and, on a couple of occasions have sent me them twice (so I have 'spares')

(I agree with you that having paid them several £100 they should 'pay the £1' to post you it)

They seem to be doing so again now.

However there was definitely a period not long back where they stopped doing so, and required you to print your own.  Their response to those who would/could not was then that they would send you one by post if you contacted them and requested it.

There was also a period where you were supposed to print your own, where when you clicked the link to do soit gave a "404 Page not found".

At one point prior to that some people in CRT were actively telling people that display of paper licences was no longer required, to the extent that quite a lot of people contacted them, and it was confirmed it was not.  That story got quickly reversed, though.

I would argue that it is exactly these kinds of mixed messages by CRT, (effectively two complete U turns on previous decisions) that causes much of the confusion.

On at least one recent renewal on one boat, I printed licences because it said I should, and subsequently got not one but two additional sets by post.  I no longer assume anything on this point!

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Yes, a consistent policy has not been in evidence in recent years. Expressions such as "Left hand...right hand" and "backside...elbow" spring to mind.

Last year I did indeed request that they send me my licence "discs" and they did. I have just renewed our licence, and this time the "discs" came through the post unbidden.

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Just a few idle thoughts.

The vast majority of boats have a licence. A licensed boat will have an up-to-date BSC and valid insurance, both of which are important. Gas, electric and stoves are potentially a lethal mixture so I'd have thought that boaters have (at least) a moral obligation to protect others even if their own safety is unimportant. Of course it doesn't mean that an unlicensed boat will not be insured or have a BSC, but it's possible.

Seems to me the whole system is flawed through a lack of clarity and lack of effective policing. It's probably exacerbated both by a raft of new boaters ignorant of their boats and obligations and those wilfully flouting the regulations.

On the continent, where narrowboats mix with cruisers, barges, yachts and multi-thousand tonne commercials, there are control locks where you must produce up-to-date papers before they allow you to pass, plus regular visits from the waterways police. We were boarded by three different authorities over one winter in Belgium, the local municipal police, the regional police and the customs and excise police, at least two officers in each case (and all who carry firearms). Our fire extinguishers were out of date when we were stopped in France (stupidly). We were given 28 days to rectify it or be fined 1,600 euros (I think from memory). I even know of one boat who borrowed in-date fire extinguishers when they knew they were to be checked and handed them back subsequently, which is really, really stupid.

The vast majority of boaters are conscientious but accidents can happen, even to the most careful and prudent. But perhaps we're just a heartbeat away from an unlicensed, uninsured boat without a BSC blowing up and killing a group of kids.

Live and let live becomes live and let die.

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14 minutes ago, Boaty Jo said:

 

The vast majority of boaters are conscientious but accidents can happen, even to the most careful and prudent. But perhaps we're just a heartbeat away from an unlicensed, uninsured boat without a BSC blowing up and killing a group of kids.

Live and let live becomes live and let die.

Before dismissing Jo's post as scaremongering, let us reflect that a tall block of flats with theoretically fire-retardant properties could surely never catch fire with heavy loss of life. Greeno awarded.

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17 minutes ago, Boaty Jo said:

The vast majority of boaters are conscientious but accidents can happen, even to the most careful and prudent. But perhaps we're just a heartbeat away from a licensed, insured boat with a BSC blowing up and killing a group of kids.

those 3 bits of paper don't magically stop boats going boom

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