HS2 canal crossing points

[Athy]

3 hours ago, LEO said:

 

Shame the Great Central line was closed and lost, if retained it perhaps could have helped solve the problem.

Yes, an example of what I mentioned earlier. It was closed because it duplicated an existing route, as it served for example Leicester and Sheffield which already had Midland stations. Now it would be very useful because - ironically - it duplicates an existing route!

[Athy]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Frankly yes I do.

The trend is surely away from it. From personal experience: one of the magazines for which I write is now run from the editor's house rather than from a central London office as it used to be. So, he doesn't need to commute. The advertising manager works from his home in Royston instead of commuting each day, and the assistant editor also works from home. We hacks send all our copy in by e-mail rather than making visits to the office.

   In Mrs. Athy's case, she used to work from her company's office in the nearby town of March. Now she has set up our study as her home office and works from there. So she doesn't need to commute (admittedly by car, not train) either.

   I suspect that our personal experiences are reflected multitudinous times around the country. I have no figures for the increase in home working; are any available? But this increase must be accompanied by a reduction in daily commuting.

[LEO]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Yes, an example of what I mentioned earlier. It was closed because it duplicated an existing route, as it served for example Leicester and Sheffield which already had Midland stations. Now it would be very useful because - ironically - it duplicates an existing route!

A good alternative route between London and Birmingham by train still exists - the Chiltern link, via High Wycombe, Princes Risborough and Bicester, it's a slow route but could be upgraded. It's used extensively by Chinese visitors travelling to Bicester Village (to buy and re-import goods which originally came from China!), but also has a useful new link to Oxford.

A restoration group are working hard to re-open the spur off to Chinnor, a village which has expanded rapidly over recent years, so that a regular service can be provided to Princes Risborough to connect with the Chiltern Line.

Then of course there is the East / West link which will be really useful.

This morning my local paper headlined the news that costs for HS2 are going to double...............

Following on from another posting, I ended up working from home - much easier, avoided all the commuter traffic and productivity actually rose.

[Machpoint005]

2 minutes ago, LEO said:

This morning my local paper headlined the news that costs for HS2 are going to double...............

Only double? They'll escalate far more than that! Think about all those directorships of construction companies that will have to be filled by retiring MPs. 

[LEO]

11 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Only double? They'll escalate far more than that! Think about all those directorships of construction companies that will have to be filled by retiring MPs. 

Cheerfully agree, and they have awarded one large contract to Carrillion!

[Captain Pegg]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

The trend is surely away from it. From personal experience: one of the magazines for which I write is now run from the editor's house rather than from a central London office as it used to be. So, he doesn't need to commute. The advertising manager works from his home in Royston instead of commuting each day, and the assistant editor also works from home. We hacks send all our copy in by e-mail rather than making visits to the office.

   In Mrs. Athy's case, she used to work from her company's office in the nearby town of March. Now she has set up our study as her home office and works from there. So she doesn't need to commute (admittedly by car, not train) either.

   I suspect that our personal experiences are reflected multitudinous times around the country. I have no figures for the increase in home working; are any available? But this increase must be accompanied by a reduction in daily commuting.

The demand is the easy bit of the equation. The solution is the difficult bit.

Alongside a revolution in information technology there has been a doubling of rail usage over 20 years accompanied with increased road usage. Working from home and demand for travel are clearly not mutually exclusive. Forecasts for the next 20 years and beyond predict that trend will continue. Doing nothing is not an option; the question is 'what?'.

Commuting needs are the subject of discrete localised projects - from Crossrail and Thameslink, through reopening or conversion of freight lines to new stations, longer trains and electrification. Such schemes are manifold and will continue. HS2 is about catering for increased long distance demand and the increased need for the movement of containerised goods principally from Felixstowe and Southampton.

The Great Central may well have been beneficial in dealing with the latter but it would only be a partial solution as a core route from which many new dedicated freight spurs would be required. Judging by the difficulty surrounding building a new passenger line, building new freight lines is probably somewhere politicians won't go. I think we lose sight of how long ago the Beeching report was published. In hindsight there were some mistakes but in the wider context it closed a significant proportion of the network for very little impact on rail passenger numbers.

The key feature of high speed rail in the UK compared to mainland Europe is that it is (on HS1) and will be (HS2 and HS3 if that ever happens) built on complete dedicated routes with new terminal stations in cities. This enables additional capacity on existing routes where it is most needed and that is a key feature in enabling enhanced capacity for commuter traffic.

Bear in the West Coast Main Line was upgraded in the 2000s at a cost of £8.5bn (excluding lost revenue through disruption) at 2008 prices and did little more than cope with suppressed demand. There are two freight paths per hour in each direction from Wembley to Rugby through the day and they are full. The journey is also extended in time by the need to loop freight trains to allow passenger trains to pass. That literally adds cost to the price of goods.

There will remain significant challenges for rail capacity even after HS2 and the risk of increasing levels of long distance commuting is a threat to freight expansion. However there is a much bigger gap in theoretical capacity versus demand for long distance commuting than conventional express trains and it is easier to combine commuter trains and freight trains in terms of timetabling.

That's the challenge that faces politicians according to the evidence they have. The one point I would agree with strongly is that the biggest failing is that the UK is way too late in dealing with the challnge.

JP

Edited July 20, 2017 by Captain Pegg

[Athy]

6 minutes ago, LEO said:

Cheerfully agree, and they have awarded one large contract to Carillion!

That name rings a few bells - but what is special about them? At least (according to t'internet) they are a British company.

[mrsmelly]

Like I said a million post ago its 50 years too late. As this thread goes on I feel even better and better about never going near the big south eastern slum!! it sounds to me like its getting worse and worse down there.

[Nightwatch]

Carillon has become the size it is by the Private Finance Initiative. They were quick off the mark in buying and developing hospitals and then renting the previously owned buildings back to the NHS at inflated costs. They got it right,the NHS couldn't as funds wouldn't allow.

I worked for MITIE at the birth of PFI and a great deal of research was done to jump on the bandwagon.in some cases they were successful, but not as quick as Carillion. A very successful company.

I stand to be corrected.

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

 

I stand to be corrected.

and you bloomin well will be

[Nightwatch]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Like I said a million post ago its 50 years too late. As this thread goes on I feel even better and better about never going near the big south eastern slum!! it sounds to me like its getting worse and worse down there.

I'm not particularly quoting you post but I wanted to separate my last post from this one,hope it works.

Im a little confused,no surprise there. The idea of HS2. Is it to have a super high speed trains from our glorious capital to Birmingham and beyond, thus enabling our rich and sometimes overpaid, (topical subject) executives to get to meetings ten minutes earlier, or to reduce the strain of the train from existing lines?

If the latter, would it not be possible to build additional lines parallel to existing lines to accommodate goods trains separate from our already adequately fast trains. Would it be less destructive and less expensive?

 

[furnessvale]

9 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Carillon has become the size it is by the Private Finance Initiative. They were quick off the mark in buying and developing hospitals and then renting the previously owned buildings back to the NHS at inflated costs. They got it right,the NHS couldn't as funds wouldn't allow.

I worked for MITIE at the birth of PFI and a great deal of research was done to jump on the bandwagon.in some cases they were successful, but not as quick as Carillion. A very successful company.

I stand to be corrected.

Until recently.

Share price has collapsed by 60% in last few weeks and some are predicting zero share value is imminent.

George

[Nightwatch]

7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

and you bloomin well will be

I am braced!

1 minute ago, furnessvale said:

Until recently.

Share price has collapsed by 60% in last few weeks and some are predicting zero share value is imminent.

George

If I had money I would invest in some shares then. They will bounce back. 

Edit to ask George. Are you referring to MITIE or Carillion? If MITIE I wouldn't invest one penny in them. I was with then at their early life and all of the founding Executives have retired. They grew big very quickly and made a few very well off.

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Nightwatch

[furnessvale]

1 minute ago, Nightwatch said:

I'm not particularly quoting you post but I wanted to separate my last post from this one,hope it works.

Im a little confused,no surprise there. The idea of HS2. Is it to have a super high speed trains from our glorious capital to Birmingham and beyond, thus enabling our rich and sometimes overpaid, (topical subject) executives to get to meetings ten minutes earlier, or to reduce the strain of the train from existing lines?

If the latter, would it not be possible to build additional lines parallel to existing lines to accommodate goods trains separate from our already adequately fast trains. Would it be less destructive and less expensive?

 

Others have pointed out just how expensive and disruptive working on existing lines can be as last upgrade of WCML proved.

George

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

 

Im a little confused,no surprise there. The idea of HS2. Is it to have a super high speed trains from our glorious capital to Birmingham and beyond, thus enabling our rich and sometimes overpaid, (topical subject) executives to get to meetings ten minutes earlier,

 

Ah, now I see! Its purpose is to ferry BBC presenters to and from Salford.

[furnessvale]

7 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Edit to ask George. Are you referring to MITIE or Carillion? If MITIE I wouldn't invest one penny in them. I was with then at their early life and all of the founding Executives have retired. They grew big very quickly and made a few very well off.

 

Definitely Carillion.  They have been in trouble for some weeks.  Perhaps the new HS2 contract will assist them.  It's an ill wind..........

George

[Captain Pegg]

5 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

I'm not particularly quoting you post but I wanted to separate my last post from this one,hope it works.

Im a little confused,no surprise there. The idea of HS2. Is it to have a super high speed trains from our glorious capital to Birmingham and beyond, thus enabling our rich and sometimes overpaid, (topical subject) executives to get to meetings ten minutes earlier, or to reduce the strain of the train from existing lines?

If the latter, would it not be possible to build additional lines parallel to existing lines to accommodate goods trains separate from our already adequately fast trains. Would it be less destructive and less expensive?

 

I don't think the case is dependent on any one group of people. The whole population is growing and is more mobile than ever for a variety of reasons.

Widening lines is a legitimate tactic and has been done locally. Tamworth to Armitage as part of West Coast modernisation is an example. However to add two tracks to the side of the southern WCML would mean compulsory purchase and destruction of tens of thousands of homes and businesses in a series of towns along the route.

There is also wider construction disruption as bridges have to be widened or parallel spans built over existing roads. On new build the road diversions can be built off line to a degree.

I think most of the alternative proposals put forward are legitimate in their own right but don't address the sheer scale of the task at hand.

JP

Edited July 20, 2017 by Captain Pegg

[Nightwatch]

15 minutes ago, Athy said:

Ah, now I see! Its purpose is to ferry BBC presenters to and from Salford.

You've got it!!

12 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Definitely Carillion.  They have been in trouble for some weeks.  Perhaps the new HS2 contract will assist them.  It's an ill wind..........

George

I looked at MITIEs shares, and they also have suffered recently.

[MtB]

On 20/07/2017 at 07:08, Athy said:

The trend is surely away from it. From personal experience: one of the magazines for which I write is now run from the editor's house rather than from a central London office as it used to be. So, he doesn't need to commute. The advertising manager works from his home in Royston instead of commuting each day, and the assistant editor also works from home. We hacks send all our copy in by e-mail rather than making visits to the office.

   In Mrs. Athy's case, she used to work from her company's office in the nearby town of March. Now she has set up our study as her home office and works from there. So she doesn't need to commute (admittedly by car, not train) either.

   I suspect that our personal experiences are reflected multitudinous times around the country. I have no figures for the increase in home working; are any available? But this increase must be accompanied by a reduction in daily commuting.

 

Is it?

I hold that most people who could work from home, already do. 

The historical trend was away from travelling to the office but as the rest of your post illustrates, most working from home using email, skype etc is already happening yet demand for travel between London and midlands shows no sign of abating.

[Machpoint005]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I hold that most people who could work from home, already do.

I think you are right. People who work in manufacturing (yes, there are quite a few), medicine, education, construction -- don't have much choice but to travel to work. What has happened in recent decades is that we expect to be able to choose where to live even if it involves an hour or two of daily travel in each direction. 

I've worked from home for 15 years now (except when I have to visit site) and I pity the poor suckers sitting in cars or standing in trains at peak hours. They are stuck with it every day, I have a choice of when to travel.

[Nightwatch]

I've got it,I've got it. Executive Car Share. Can be big cars or the bog standard Mondeo. You register your need to go from Holborn in the smoke to,say, Gas Street in Birmingham. Hey Presto! Do a bit of cross business on the way. Express lanes on the M25/M40/M6 etc. Share the petrol/Diesel.

or,don't go at all. Phone!!

Less cars on the road, saving 'billions' of pound notes and no need for knocking down people's homes and destroying the country side.

[Machpoint005]

10 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

I've got it,I've got it. Executive Car Share. Can be big cars or the bog standard Mondeo. You register your need to go from Holborn in the smoke to,say, Gas Street in Birmingham. Hey Presto! Do a bit of cross business on the way. Express lanes on the M25/M40/M6 etc. Share the petrol/Diesel.

or,don't go at all. Phone!!

Less cars on the road, saving 'billions' of pound notes and no need for knocking down people's homes and destroying the country side.

Good idea in theory, rubbish in practice. How many people say "they should all use the bus" meaning that there would then be more space for their own car, and they wouldn't have to use the bus themselves?

As for your Holborn to Gas Street journey, this misses the point, as does HS2. It's not the inter-city part that takes the time, it's the travel to and from the station (ie the city driving).

If I want to get from Stockport to London, it takes me ten minutes to walk to the local station, five minutes on the local train, then wait for the Pendolino (say ten minutes), two hours on that train, then however long it takes to get to my London destination on foot, tube or taxi - let's say half an hour. Just shy of three hours, if all goes well.

Using HS2 that would only be half an hour quicker* overall, with none of the inconvenience of changing travel modes eliminated. I'd get half an hour less reading time on the train. I wouldn't get half an hour extra in bed, and the entire exercise would still take a whole day.

I simply do not see the benefit, or the point, of HS2 to the rail traveller..  

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Machpoint005
*That's if it calls at Stockport. If I have to go to Manchester to catch HS2 that adds another 20 minutes.

[Athy]

A humorous piece which I saw this morning on the internet, apparently on a web site from Southend, claims that the government has cancelled HS2 as they have realised that no sane person wishes to travel North of Watford.

Some would say "South of Watford", of course.

[MtB]

On 20/07/2017 at 10:25, Nightwatch said:

I've got it,I've got it. Executive Car Share. Can be big cars or the bog standard Mondeo. You register your need to go from Holborn in the smoke to,say, Gas Street in Birmingham. Hey Presto! Do a bit of cross business on the way. Express lanes on the M25/M40/M6 etc. Share the petrol/Diesel.

or,don't go at all. Phone!!

Less cars on the road, saving 'billions' of pound notes and no need for knocking down people's homes and destroying the country side.

 

I'm not sure that would have much impact. Most road traffic (if you look around you on a motorway) is commercial. Builders' vans full of tools and materials, service company vans (fixing factory machines and equipment), company reps'c cars loaded with samples and exhibition display materials, lorries and tankers.

Only about 5% of traffic is fat blokes in posh, empty cars. A further 5% is pairs yummy mummies in whacking great Audi and VW 4x4s going to Ikea.  No idea who lets them on the motorway. 

[Machpoint005]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

yummy mummies in whacking great Audi and VW 4x4s going to Ikea.  No idea who lets them on the motorway.

They use their phones en route to get permission. Not hands-free, though.

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

Some would say "South of Watford", of course.

Not I. Watford is far too far south.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Machpoint005