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Narrow boat sinks


koukouvagia

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16 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

the statement that 'Ms Samples had temporary third-party insurance while some welding was being completed on the boat' implies that once the welding was completed she no longer had that insurance.

But had the welding been completed? We don't know. 

The article didn't say that she had had insurance, it said that she had insurance, however with the quality of journalism in this country, who knows what she had?

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15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What ever she had they didnt cover her. If she had have had 3 part CRT could claim against it.

Unless the insurers determined that she had not complied with their conditions by renting it out and voided her cover.

So she was, in effect, uninsured anyway.

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14 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Perhaps she couldn't get fully comp till works were done?

It would still have been invalidated by her renting the boat out. Unless she also complied with all the hire boat regs including the more onerous BSS, more expensive license and suitable insurance. 

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28 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It would still have been invalidated by her renting the boat out. Unless she also complied with all the hire boat regs including the more onerous BSS, more expensive license and suitable insurance. 

When renting, isn't it a C&RT requirement (to get a commercial licence) that the owner also has to provide various 'facilities' including (but not limited to) rubbish emptying (bins) and car parking space for the renter.

 

Edit - Found it :

17.1      We do not grant business licences for long term letting to boats which are licensed on a continuous cruising basis.  
17.2      You must have a Home Mooring for the Boat on an existing mooring site, recognised by the Trust and with appropriate facilities. . 

17.3      You must have the mooring operator’s permission for Static Letting.  
17.4      You must be able to demonstrate to us that you have the right to access the following facilities owned or managed by the Trust, or a third party or yourself: 
17.4.1    suitable customer parking or public transport as appropriate  

17.4.2     fresh drinking water 

17.4.3     refuse disposal facilities 

17.4.4     a means of disposing of sewage from the boat (where relevant) 

17.4.5     a safe place from which you can board and disembark customers 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When renting, isn't it a C&RT requirement (to get a commercial licence) that the owner also has to provide various 'facilities' including (but not limited to) rubbish emptying (bins) and car parking space for the renter.

That's my understanding for sure. Perhaps someone with fleet experience can comment?

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48 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It would still have been invalidated by her renting the boat out. Unless she also complied with all the hire boat regs including the more onerous BSS, more expensive license and suitable insurance. 

I know that, just suggesting another scenario for having "temporary 3rd party insurance".

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57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When renting, isn't it a C&RT requirement (to get a commercial licence) that the owner also has to provide various 'facilities' including (but not limited to) rubbish emptying (bins) and car parking space for the renter.

49 minutes ago, WotEver said:

That's my understanding for sure. Perhaps someone with fleet experience can comment?

 

Correct.

You must also have an approved boat handover procedure according to CRT T&C's but this doesn't seem to be checked on.

Presumably though, if an operator can't demonstrate compliance when required to (ie after an accident) then things get much harder for them both with CRT and their insurer.

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1 minute ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

Correct.

You must also have an approved boat handover procedure according to CRT T&C's but this doesn't seem to be checked on.

Presumably though, if an operator can't demonstrate compliance when required to (ie after an accident) then things get much harder for them both with CRT and their insurer.

Thanks for confirming :)

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On 17/07/2017 at 12:07, Neil2 said:

I can see why some might not be inclined to help this poor woman, I agree what she did was beyond stupid, but to have no sympathy?  Someone has lost their home and pretty much everything they own, even if it's their own fault how can you not feel sorry for them?  

    

I agree. For me it's perfectly possible to have some sympathy for someone who has undoubtedly been stupid, so I find it odd that some people insist on taking such a polarised view - one way or the other. It's a matter of holding two different concepts in one's head at the same time - which seems surprisingly difficult for a lot of people!

I have some sympathy for her loss, but at the same time I can't help thinking that if she really loved her boat that much and it was that important to her, then she shouldn't have rented it out for short-term gain, to someone she didn't know and who obviously didn't know what they were doing. 

Edited by blackrose
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The implications of this thread make me wonder what I should do about this....

https://www.facebook.com/bespokenarrowboatexperience/

as the boat being rented out is one that until a couple of years ago I used to own.

Unless a lot of updating has been done, which I think is unlikely, it would not meet the requirements of a BSS for commercial letting.

Also the boat is cc-ed in a fairly small area, and apperas not to comply with stated CRT requirements for letting out a boat.


For those who can't see a Facebook link, here is a cut and paste of some of the text in it....

Quote

 

I have a 50' narrow boat on the Grand Union Canal. I travel every two weeks from Stoke Bruene to Leighton Buzzard, and I am offering you the opportunity to stay on my boat from £60.00 per night, for a maximum of 4 people. This offer includes fresh linen, towels, tea and coffee and two set up fishing rods. This is a wonderful experience and can be given in the form of a Gift Certificate if you wish.

This boat is static but situated in a pretty location and where there will be access to parking.

All of the usual amenities i.e. gas hob/wood burner/Shower and flushing toilet are available.

My narrow boat experience is a bespoke one, which means I can provide continental or full English breakfast or perhaps even a nice bottle of wine on ice for those special occasions (please discuss with me!)

Viewings welcome.

Sorry no pets or large groups.

I still have some dates available.

Any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.

There is limited places available, so please book soonest.

Please contact xxxxx xxxxx 07896 nnnnnn or email xxxxxxxxx202@sky.com

 


(The last bit edited to remove full details, as I don't want to help her let it, unless I see evidence that it is a legal let).

 

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2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

The implications of this thread make me wonder what I should do about this....

https://www.facebook.com/bespokenarrowboatexperience/

as the boat being rented out is one that until a couple of years ago I used to own.

Unless a lot of updating has been done, which I think is unlikely, it would not meet the requirements of a BSS for commercial letting.

Also the boat is cc-ed in a fairly small area, and apperas not to comply with stated CRT requirements for letting out a boat.


For those who can't see a Facebook link, here is a cut and paste of some of the text in it....


(The last bit edited to remove full details, as I don't want to help her let it, unless I see evidence that it is a legal let).

 

 

Two fishing rods. I wonder if they check whether the potential fisher people have a rod licence and then tells em they need to possibly join the angling club controlling the angling under the boat too.  :)

Difficult one. Duty of Care and all that. If it was a "shed" with hazards I would dob em in. If not, be inclined to shrug off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, mark99 said:

I've texted them asking them interested in hiring but first  to confirm commercial insurance for hiring, licence for same and BSC.

Will report back if I get reply.

I've put much the same on the FB page. It will probably be deleted :-)

haggis

I said "I am interested in this! Sounds lovely. Just being extra careful, I assume that you have a licence and insurance to cover hiring your boat out."

Edited by haggis
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Isn't it the modern practice to do everything on a "wing and a prayer", either through ignorance or more likely because you can get away with it?

Doing things 'properly' means a lot of research and ending up with no you can't - so folks continue...

Sometimes it works and others - well.....

It's a generation thing. 

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On 20/07/2017 at 19:50, OldGoat said:

Isn't it the modern practice to do everything on a "wing and a prayer", either through ignorance or more likely because you can get away with it?

Doing things 'properly' means a lot of research and ending up with no you can't - so folks continue...

Sometimes it works and others - well.....

It's a generation thing. 

 

Doing anythingbelow the radar is fine provided should it all goes wrong, you suck it up 'own' and deal with the consequences.

This woman seemed to want to rent out under the radar and take the higher level of profit, but when it went badly wrong expected the rest of us to bail her out. 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When renting, isn't it a C&RT requirement (to get a commercial licence) that the owner also has to provide various 'facilities' including (but not limited to) rubbish emptying (bins) and car parking space for the renter.

 

Edit - Found it :

17.1      We do not grant business licences for long term letting to boats which are licensed on a continuous cruising basis.  
17.2      You must have a Home Mooring for the Boat on an existing mooring site, recognised by the Trust and with appropriate facilities. . 

17.3      You must have the mooring operator’s permission for Static Letting.  
17.4      You must be able to demonstrate to us that you have the right to access the following facilities owned or managed by the Trust, or a third party or yourself: 
17.4.1    suitable customer parking or public transport as appropriate  

17.4.2     fresh drinking water 

17.4.3     refuse disposal facilities 

17.4.4     a means of disposing of sewage from the boat (where relevant) 

17.4.5     a safe place from which you can board and disembark customers 

 

The list isn't onerous once you think about it......pretty much any except the most basic moorings provide car parking, bins and a water tap for example. I suspect the other aspects such as mooring operator's permission, the increased cost of the licence insurance are higher barriers.

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On 20/07/2017 at 20:15, Paul C said:

The list isn't onerous once you think about it......pretty much any except the most basic moorings provide car parking, bins and a water tap for example. I suspect the other aspects such as mooring operator's permission, the increased cost of the licence insurance are higher barriers.

 

And no-one so far, not even CRT, has mentioned the law requiring a landlord gas safety certificate if you take in a lodger or otherwise rent out your accommodation.

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23 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And no-one so far, not even CRT, has mentioned the law requiring a landlord gas safety certificate if you take in a lodger or otherwise rent out your accommodation.

Yes they have, taken from CRT page about renting a boat using the new "Static Letting Licence"  -

"The Static Letting Licence has more rigorous requirements to make sure that both the boat is safe and that potential renters are fully briefed before spending a night on board.  Boat owners will be required to have: proof of adequate insurance; a Non-Private Boat Safety Scheme Certificate; a detailed handover document including emergency procedures and contact numbers; a Landlord Gas Safety Certificate; and written permission from their mooring provider."

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/getting-afloat/renting-a-boat-to-live-on

Edited by Chewbacka
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1 hour ago, haggis said:

I've put much the same on the FB page. It will probably be deleted :-)

haggis

I said "I am interested in this! Sounds lovely. Just being extra careful, I assume that you have a licence and insurance to cover hiring your boat out."

had a reply on FB which says Yes my boat is licenced and insured.. Doesn't say to cover hiring though does it? 

haggis

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I wonder if there is a lot of this sort of thing going on these days.

In the days when licences were transferable, BW didn't routinely change the ownership details on a sold boat until the licence was renewed by the new owner.

I sold a boat to a couple and a few weeks later received what I would describe as a threatening letter from BW telling me to stop using my boat for "commercial purposes". Obviously I complained, especially since I had duly returned the change of ownership form BW supplied you with in those days, which is how I discovered the boat was being illicitly used for hire by the new owners.  

I suspect someone shopped them as the boat was pretty old, basic and not the sort of thing you would expect in a hire boat, however cheap.  

At the time I did wonder about the buyers, they didn't seem to have a lot of spare cash which is doubtless why they had to go down this route.  I wonder how many others dream about buying a narrowboat and see this as a way of paying the bills.           

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On 20/07/2017 at 21:00, haggis said:

had a reply on FB which says Yes my boat is licenced and insured.. Doesn't say to cover hiring though does it? 

haggis

 

Ask her if she has the landlord gas certificate, and for a copy if she say yes....

On 20/07/2017 at 20:51, Chewbacka said:

Yes they have, taken from CRT page about renting a boat using the new "Static Letting Licence"  -

"The Static Letting Licence has more rigorous requirements to make sure that both the boat is safe and that potential renters are fully briefed before spending a night on board.  Boat owners will be required to have: proof of adequate insurance; a Non-Private Boat Safety Scheme Certificate; a detailed handover document including emergency procedures and contact numbers; a Landlord Gas Safety Certificate; and written permission from their mooring provider."

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/getting-afloat/renting-a-boat-to-live-on

 

Good.

No mention in the CRT list posted by Alan in post 106 though.

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