Volockies

[mross]

12 hours ago, rusty69 said:

I suppose medically speaking an accident could be caused at any age, but statistically the older you are the more likely an accident is. Same in a car

This is incorrect.  It's the young who are accident prone, especially in cars.  That's why their insurance is so high.  As we get older we gain experience and take fewer risks.

The part of the brain that calculates risk is not mature until age 25 or so.

Edited July 19, 2017 by mross

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, mross said:

This is incorrect.  It's the young who are accident prone, especially in cars.  That's why their insurance is so high.  As we get older we gain experience and take fewer risks.

The part of the brain that calculates risk is not mature until age 25 or so.

I was suggesting that the chances of a medical problem causing an accident are higher when a person is older. Not sure that is incorrect. 

[mross]

Oh, OK  But have you any evidence?  I mean, how many accidents are due to medical problems?  I looked for evidence to back up my claim and was just about to add it to my last post.  I might as well do that now, just for interest.

"Research by the RAC Foundation suggests drivers aged 75 and over make up 6% of all licence holders but account for just 4.3% of all deaths and serious injuries. By contrast, drivers aged 16-20 make up just 2.5% of all drivers but 13% of those killed and seriously injured." 

"There's a stat that young drivers under the age of 24 have twice as many crashes as you'd expect, given the numbers on the road, and older drivers have half as many as you'd expect, given the number on the road," says Neil Greig, director of policy and research at the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM)."

 

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, mross said:

Oh, OK  But have you any evidence

No. 

 

ETA. I suspect travel insurance and car insurance is costlier for over 80's,but cba to Google it. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by rusty69

[mross]

you are right but see this, 

"According to data from the Association of British Insurers (ABI) the average car insurance premium costs £241 for drivers aged 66-70. For drivers aged 80 to 85, that jumps to £352.

So in short, over 80s car insurance isn’t cheap however it’s nowhere near as expensive as it is for anyone aged 18-25."

https://www.mustard.co.uk/car-insurance/specialist/over-80s-car-insurance/

So, over 80s are safer than under 25s! 

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, mross said:

So, over 80s are safer than under 25s! 

But their health possibly not as good

Edited July 19, 2017 by rusty69

[canalboat]

14 hours ago, frangar said:

My boat....my rules. 

 

But what if the owner of the lock you wish to use says - My lock ...my rules?

[mayalld]

10 hours ago, nicknorman said:

When I enter a lock, I don't feel anybody is particularly "in charge" usually one of us is "in charge" of operating the boat - he has his hands on tiller and maybe throttle lever so it's pretty obvious. The other has a windlass in his hand so is clearly in charge of operating the lock. The process of going through a lock is a familiar one, no one needs to be in charge of the overall process.

HOWEVER if something goes wrong, everyone is in charge of drawing attention to the problem and dealing with it. Typically this would be by pressing the "pause" button aka closing any open paddles.

What you DON'T want is someone not calling a problem because they feel disempowered because they've been told they are not in charge, or not taking the initiative to stop a minor problem becoming a major problem.

What you DON'T want is the person "in charge" saying "What? What's the problem? I'm in charge and I can't see a problem" when someone else, deemed not in charge, sees a problem and eg calls for paddles to be dropped.

Being "in charge" is only a safe situation when you are on your own. Otherwise it is safer to have a culture where everyone is "in charge" of ensuring safe passage through a lock. Otherwise known as a team effort.

This "I'm in charge, and don't you forget it" culture has repeatedly proven to be disastrous in aviation and is thus no longer the culture. It seems that some folk in boating world haven't realised this yet, although admittedly it matters less because the resultant avoidable accidents have less serious consequences.

Clearly, you are going to stick to your views, which are wrong.

Everybody being in charge is a disaster waiting to happen.

One person being in charge, but everybody empowered to call an emergency stop, which is respected until such time as the person in charge decides how to proceed is the correct way.

Happily, having had this discussion on here, and as we know each others boat names, we know that should our paths cross again on the canal, our attitudes to the operation of the lock are such that we will not wish to assist each other. We don't even need to have an awkward conversation to decline the offer.

 

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, mayalld said:

Clearly, you are going to stick to your views, which are wrong.

Everybody being in charge is a disaster waiting to happen.

One person being in charge, but everybody empowered to call an emergency stop, which is respected until such time as the person in charge decides how to proceed is the correct way.

Happily, having had this discussion on here, and as we know each others boat names, we know that should our paths cross again on the canal, our attitudes to the operation of the lock are such that we will not wish to assist each other. We don't even need to have an awkward conversation to decline the offer.

 

Not true. I would wish to help you, and I would wish you to help me. If you don't want to help me and don't want me to help you, that is your prerogative.

You are irrational. It is not "clear" that my views are wrong. Firstly, they are views that are shared by most other non-control-freaks, and secondly they are my views. They are thus neither right nor wrong.

Edited July 19, 2017 by nicknorman

[dogless]

I never knew canal boating was so difficult.

We've somehow survived happily, and even enjoying ourselves, blissfully unaware that it's so risky and stressful.

It's strange too, because over the years, I've often seen groups of  young men and women, drunk as lords, managing boats in chaotic ways and yet in 99% of cases without incident.

Rog

[mrsmelly]

13 hours ago, rusty69 said:

I suppose medically speaking an accident could be caused at any age, but statistically the older you are the more likely an accident is. Same in a car

My Dad aged 90 was driving his car when he suddenly went blind, turns out he had a stroke that instantly effected his eyesight but nothing else. Luckily he had only driven about 400 yards in his quiet village and pulled up in the road and a local helped him and mum. If he had been doing whatever on a motorway!!

[mayalld]

14 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Not true. I would wish to help you, and I would wish you to help me. If you don't want to help me and don't want me to help you, that is your prerogative.

You are irrational. It is not "clear" that my views are wrong. Firstly, they are views that are shared by most other non-control-freaks, and secondly they are my views. They are thus neither right nor wrong.

It may well be that you would wish to help me. However, I have no wish to be "helped" by anybody who isn't fully behind the idea that if the steerer of my boat says we do it in a particular way, that is the way we do it, no matter how much better he thinks his way is.

In a similar way, if I am helping another boater, then I want the helmsman of that boat to make the decisions, rather than me making decisions for him.

Let me assist you with parsing my opening sentence in my previous post, as you appear to be struggling.

"Clearly" is appropriate, because it refers to the probability that you will stick to your views. The bit about them being wrong is a humorous aside. Others may have added a smiley. I prefer not to add smileys, as I always feel that flagging up a humorous aside with a smiley implies that you think that the reader may be too thick to see it as a humorous aside without a label that says so.

Unfortunately, you seem to be incapable of any degree of acceptance that other people are entitled to do things their way, and your reaction to any suggestion that people should be allowed to stop a free-for-all where all-comers can do what they please if THEY think it best, is frankly edging into the abusive, with name calling, and remarks about captain's hats.

Your views are clearly not shared by the majority, and they don't accord with the rules that CRT lay down for their volunteers

 

[rusty69]

You two are getting on well

[mrsmelly]

11 hours ago, nicknorman said:

No, flying a glider is much harder than buying and driving a narrowboat. However there is a "meritocracy" system in the uk in that gliding requires other bods to hold your wing, operate the launching system etc. These bods come attached to gliding clubs that are under the umbrella of the British Gliding Association. You won't be able to launch your glider if you are considered incompetent by your peers. So although in theory it would be possible to buy a glider, pay a butler to hold one's wing and the footman to drive the winch, launching oneself from one's extensive parkland, in reality this doesn't happen and it is a really good system and far better than in private power world where, a bit like your car driving licence, once you've got your licence you no longer are subject to any supervision. Sorry for totally off topic!

For you boating licence renewal, is there any sort of proficiency check or is it just a matter of filling out a form, showing you are reasonably current, and paying a fee?

Do you wear a funny hat with scrambled egg?

Hi Nick

On renewal no there is no proficiency check. The test by the mca captain for such as the Nott Princess is the one time the mca actualy check you. BUT similar to your gliding it seems we do have to be checked by law internaly by someone with a similar or higher licence grade every 12 months and its all recorded as you can imagine!! It would be possible to miss these checks if you were not working during saya 12/24 month period but on returning the onus would be on yourself to have a assessment check.

[mayalld]

5 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

You two are getting on well

I'm sure that Nick is quite a nice guy, but in my view there is little more dangerous that somebody who wants to join a group activity, but isn't prepared to accept the group norms.

His tendency to start name calling where people won't play his way doesn't really do him any favours.

[Stilllearning]

On 7/17/2017 at 19:14, Rose Narrowboats said:

You may be amazed by this, but that's what the bow fender is for!

Having spent years single handing, mainly on narrow locks, the best way to go uphill is with the front fender up against the cill, then against the gate. You achieve this by leaving the engine in gear and opening the top paddles progressively to make sure the bl@+%y boat stays put. All locks behave slightly differently and one learns how fast one can open paddles so that the boat stays where you want it. Part of the pleasure of single handing is in going as fast and smoothly through a flight of locks as one can, without wasted effort, so if a volockie ever opened a paddle faster than I wanted, he she would get shouted at. It is the same situation as one is in when sharing a lock and sharing the work, you check with the other crew before doing something that will affect them and their boat. Simple really.

To avoid wear and tear on the front fender, just go to any tyre fitters and blag a go cart or lawn mower tyre  and fit it over your fender.

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Stilllearning
Edited thanks to the joys of predictive text and me not noticing

[Midnight]

7 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Having spent years single handing, mainly on narrow locks, the best way to go uphill is with the front fender up against the cill, then against the gate. You achieve this by leaving the engine in gear and opening the top paddles progressively to make sure the bl@+%y boat stays put. All locks behave slightly differently and one learns how fast one can open paddles so that the boat stays where you want it. Part of the pleasure of single handing is in going as fast and smoothly through a flight of locks as one can, without wasted effort, so if a volockie ever opened a paddle faster than I wanted, he she would get shouted at. It is the same situation as one is in when sharing a lock and sharing the work, you check with the other crew before doing something that will affect them and their boat. Simple really.

To avoid wear and tear on the front fender, just go to any tyre fitters and blag a go cart or lawn mower type and fit it over your fender.

 

^^^^^^^ that's the way to do it! - Nick will be along shortly to arrange a coaching session for you perhaps we could split the tuition fees?

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

My Dad aged 90 was driving his car when he suddenly went blind, turns out he had a stroke that instantly effected his eyesight but nothing else. Luckily he had only driven about 400 yards in his quiet village and pulled up in the road and a local helped him and mum. If he had been doing whatever on a motorway!!

For your one dad who may have had an accident if circumstances had been different, dozens of youngsters do, also on quiet country roads and people end up dead.

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, Midnight said:

^^^^^^^ that's the way to do it! - Nick will be along shortly to arrange a coaching session for you perhaps we could split the tuition fees?

If you are single handing, that is certainly one way of doing it. However I'd say it is not the universally only way, it can depend on the lock. With some deep locks I prefer not to do that because the front of the boat below the fender can rub on say a concrete cill edge and take the blacking off unnecessarily. But the important point is the first phrase of my post. When a volockie is helping you, you are no longer single handing. Problems will inevitably arise if you apply the same technique when you are not single handing, as when you are. This lack of flexibility is at the heart of some of these reported issue I think. Of course we could all be like Dave Mayall and demand a sterile exclusion zone around our boats, but I'm very glad that nearly everybody isn't like that.

3 hours ago, dogless said:

I never knew canal boating was so difficult.

We've somehow survived happily, and even enjoying ourselves, blissfully unaware that it's so risky and stressful.

It's strange too, because over the years, I've often seen groups of  young men and women, drunk as lords, managing boats in chaotic ways and yet in 99% of cases without incident.

Rog

Totally agree!  It's amazing how much of a meal some folk can make of passing through a lock.

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Hi Nick

On renewal no there is no proficiency check. The test by the mca captain for such as the Nott Princess is the one time the mca actualy check you. BUT similar to your gliding it seems we do have to be checked by law internaly by someone with a similar or higher licence grade every 12 months and its all recorded as you can imagine!! It would be possible to miss these checks if you were not working during saya 12/24 month period but on returning the onus would be on yourself to have a assessment check.

Interesting ta.

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, mayalld said:

 but isn't prepared to accept the group norms.

I think you mean "isn't prepared to accept my way of doing it"! The group norm is that we generally all help each other, you are the odd one out in not wanting any outsider to help - you have repeatedly said on here you don't want volockies helping you. If that was the group norm, there wouldn't be any volockies as there would be no point.

[mrsmelly]

12 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Interesting ta.

Yes there is quite a lot to it. For instance when I started on the Notts Princess in 2012 I had a Boatmasters licence but there was no way the mca would allow me to skipper the Princess because of passenger numbers 172 against narrowboats of much less and the Princess is way bigger in every way with twin screws etc and much fire fighting equipment and 8 watertight compartment with " stuff " in them etc etc and a big part of the mca boatmasters for that class of boat is boat knowledge. Also everyone has to be tested in that particular area because of Trent bridge. I did have some forum members in the wheelhouse for a drive a few times and they said it was " an experience " ask Matty for instance. When I moved back down here I went into salters and they offered me a skippers job on their steamers and the mca were fine with that and all I had to do was be shown local knowledge because their steamers are smaller and the river a similar environment to the Trent at Nottingham though smaller.

[mayalld]

36 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I think you mean "isn't prepared to accept my way of doing it"! The group norm is that we generally all help each other, you are the odd one out in not wanting any outsider to help - you have repeatedly said on here you don't want volockies helping you. If that was the group norm, there wouldn't be any volockies as there would be no point.

That simply means that you don't understand what "the group" is in the context of working a boat through a lock!

In that context, "the group" is "the group of people who are going to play a part in that activity", and bluntly it is imperative that everybody in that group is singing from the same hymn sheet when it comes to how things will happen.

As to what the norm is amongst boaters in general, I don't actually care whether I am in a minority or not (I'm certainly not in a minority of one), I'm allowed to be in that minority, and I'm allowed to not have other people doing their own thing whilst I'm in a lock.

As to your final sentence, you've hit the nail on the head. There is no point to volunteer lockies. They are doing a non-job that was invented for them.

Feel free to insert some kind of emoticon if you failed to see the tongue in cheek turning your own words on you there.

[rgreg]

3 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

Having spent years single handing, mainly on narrow locks, the best way to go uphill is with the front fender up against the cill, then against the gate. You achieve this by leaving the engine in gear and opening the top paddles progressively to make sure the bl@+%y boat stays put. All locks behave slightly differently and one learns how fast one can open paddles so that the boat stays where you want it. Part of the pleasure of single handing is in going as fast and smoothly through a flight of locks as one can, without wasted effort, so if a volockie ever opened a paddle faster than I wanted, he she would get shouted at. It is the same situation as one is in when sharing a lock and sharing the work, you check with the other crew before doing something that will affect them and their boat. Simple really.

To avoid wear and tear on the front fender, just go to any tyre fitters and blag a go cart or lawn mower type and fit it over your fender.

 

That's how I do it too

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, mayalld said:

That simply means that you don't understand what "the group" is in the context of working a boat through a lock!

In that context, "the group" is "the group of people who are going to play a part in that activity", and bluntly it is imperative that everybody in that group is singing from the same hymn sheet when it comes to how things will happen.

As to what the norm is amongst boaters in general, I don't actually care whether I am in a minority or not (I'm certainly not in a minority of one), I'm allowed to be in that minority, and I'm allowed to not have other people doing their own thing whilst I'm in a lock.

As to your final sentence, you've hit the nail on the head. There is no point to volunteer lockies. They are doing a non-job that was invented for them.

Feel free to insert some kind of emoticon if you failed to see the tongue in cheek turning your own words on you there.

I have to say your posting style has become a little cryptic of late! Firstly I am expected to work out that when you said I was wrong, you didn't actually mean it. Now, having used the term "group norm" I am supposed to work out which group you are talking about. I chose the obvious one, but seems it was wrong. So when you single hand, the group in your group norm consists just of yourself. Are you a group?

You say that "it is imperitive that everybody in that group is singing from the same hymn sheet" but clearly it is only imperitive to you. Why? If I say lack of flexibilit, insecurity and under-confidence, you will no doubt complain the I'm insulting you. So I'd better not say that! For most other people it is not imperitive - which is just as well since there are many ways to skin a lock, many of them equally valid. Going through a lock is a tiny morsel, not an enormous meal!