Heffalump

"Permanent Mooring"

205 posts in this topic

I know, I know.

I come back every year or so and ask more questions about finally getting around to getting a boat.

If I had a permanent mooring, (Leisure mooring), could I hang around on the same stretch of canal, elsewhere, for no longer than two weeks in one location, without having to "cruise continuously"?

Exempli gratia - I take up a mooring at Cropredy Marina, this is non-residential and I don't live on the mooring.  But I do want to live on the boat.  Can I take the boat to Oxford for a couple of weeks, Thrupp for a couple of weeks, then Heyford, then Aynho, then Banbury, then back to Oxford, rinse and repeat?

AFAIK the requirement not to hang around on the same stretch is for CCers who don't, how would this apply to someone who does have a permanent mooring?

Can / worms et cetera, but there are no residential moorings within a fair commute to my place of work.

 

:)

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The law says "YES" you can do as proposed  

A Judge said 'YES' you can do as proposed

C&RT says "NO" you cannot, you are subject to the same rules as CCers when away from your mooring.

 

You pays you money and makes your choice.

 

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Why not take your 'home mooring' up north. For example the Leeds Liverpool where prices are low, then continue to do as you suggest. 

It doesn't even need to be a marina. Get your self an even cheaper private linear mooring. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A Judge said 'YES' you can do as proposed

So save you trying to find it :

The judgement in the case of CaRT v Mayers states that repeated journeys between the same two places would be 'bona fide navigation' if the boater had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal. HHJ Halbert also stated that any requirement by CaRT to use a substantial part of the canal network was not justified by Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995 because the requirement to use the boat for bona fide navigation is 'temporal not geographical'.

 

 

6:3 There are clear anomalies in both positions, CRT clearly regard the occupation of moorings by permanently residential boat owners who do not move very much as a significant problem (see paragraphs 3.5 and 3.6 above). However, neither the statutory regime in subsection 17(3) nor the guidelines can deal with this problem. A boat which has a home mooring is not required to be “bona fide” used for navigation throughout the period of the licence, but neither is it required to ever use its home mooring. The act requires that the mooring is available, it does not say it must be used. The guidelines also have this effect. The boat is still subject to the restriction that it must not stay in the same place for more than 14 days but there is nothing whatever to stop it being shuffled between two locations quite close together provided they are far enough apart to constitute different places. If those who are causing the overcrowding at popular spots have home moorings anywhere in the country the present regime cannot control their overuse of the popular spots. Such an owner could cruise to and fro along the Kennet & Avon canal near Bristol and the home mooring could be in Birmingham and totally unused.

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According to my calculations the journey is just about over the 20 miles which CRT suggest as a range being just about likely to "satisfy the board".  The problem is how do you define a range do you measure from a point 20 miles in each direction or 10 miles in each direction.

 

Yes I do know that according to law you don't have to if you have a home mooring, I am just wondering.

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1 minute ago, Jerra said:

According to my calculations the journey is just about over the 20 miles which CRT suggest as a range being just about likely to "satisfy the board".  The problem is how do you define a range do you measure from a point 20 miles in each direction or 10 miles in each direction.

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That's interesting, in all honesty, I'd probably travel up as far as Braunston and perhaps even over to billing, as I work in Brackley.

Can you cite a source for this, please? Linky? :)

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My understanding of 'range' is a distance from the point at which you start :

So a car has a 'range of 50 miles' whilst it may do 25 out &ret trips of 2 miles it would not normally be 'read''' in that way.

7 minutes ago, Jerra said:

According to my calculations the journey is just about over the 20 miles which CRT suggest as a range being just about likely to "satisfy the board".  The problem is how do you define a range do you measure from a point 20 miles in each direction or 10 miles in each direction.

 

Yes I do know that according to law you don't have to if you have a home mooring, I am just wondering.

They do not actually say that tho' do they.

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On 15/07/2017 at 15:38, Alan de Enfield said:

They do not actually say that tho' do they.

 

I thought CRT put it the other way around. Any boater without a home mooring and with a cruising range of less than 20 miles (or whatever it is this week) is unlikely be deemed compliant. 

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I thought CRT put it the other way around. Any boater without a home mooring and with a cruising range of less than 20 miles (or whatever it is this week) is unlikely be deemed compliant. 

Correct....

And if your reason for staying in one area is on C&RTs 'undesirable' list (School, work, etc) then it becomes definitely unlikely to be compliant.

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Personally, I don't think you'll find a definitive answer here.  The letter of the law says one thing, CRT says another, and you will possibly find yourself hassled by CRT's enforcement brigade (or whatever they're called this week) or even in court if you rely on the former while fairly obviously being aware that you are bending the spirit of the rules.  So it really comes down to whether you're up for the fight, which, as the law is rarely on the side of an individual as opposed to large important organisations, you might well lose - thus dropping a load of other people who try to live on the fuzzy edges into the mire with you...

Anything that CRT has ever said about "range" or "place" is just a guideline and has no legal validity, so you can't rely on that either, it's just advice, and they can change that any time they like.  as, of course, they have.

But while your marina may not be residential, they may be happy for you to spend a night a fortnight on your boat there, in which case you haven't a problem, because each time you go back to the marina (presumably for at least a day rather than just turning round and exiting again) the clock gets reset.  That would be safer than having a home mooring oop north you never visit at all.

In the end, it comes down to whether you want to pick a fight with CRT or not.  Some do, and some win.  Some don't.  Some ought to have done and still don't - right, wrong, fairness and legality don't have a lot to do with it, mostly it comes down to who has the most money and appetite for the fight.

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Wise words from Arthur above.

Der OP, the thing is, CRT concentrate their resources on the piss takers. Top priority are boats without a home mooring but never move, then on to those who overstay, then those whose range is less than 20 miles. All the focus is on boats without a home mooring. The other type of piss taker is the boat with a really cheap on line mooring up north which is never used, while the boat cruises a very small area down south. 

If you use your boat as you describe I doubt CRT will see you as a piss taker, they will see you as someone who actually uses your boat. Even if they notice you and decide to do something about it, they will probably just write to you and ask you to use your home mooring a bit more. And this will probably take them a couple of years to get around to doing but I doubt they ever will. There are much bigger boundary-pushers around for them to focus their resources on.

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Thanks, Mike.

Cropredy was just a name pulled out of the ether, but is a possibility for us, whichever mooring it would be it would be one of the stops along the route.  I suppose this takes us away from pretending to CC and into lots of cruises, all along the same route.

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Having a home mooring changes one's mindset when out cruising though. One feels a need to use it to get value out of it. 

I CCed for quite a while on the K&A before giving up my home mooring at Cropredy. It was nice not to ave to worry about cruising ranges, but when CRT introduced that concept I didn't start using the home mooring again, I gave it up as there was no longer any advantage to having it.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

51 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Personally, I don't think you'll find a definitive answer here.  The letter of the law says one thing, CRT says another, and you will possibly find yourself hassled by CRT's enforcement brigade (or whatever they're called this week) or even in court if you rely on the former while fairly obviously being aware that you are bending the spirit of the rules.  So it really comes down to whether you're up for the fight, which, as the law is rarely on the side of an individual as opposed to large important organisations, you might well lose - thus dropping a load of other people who try to live on the fuzzy edges into the mire with you...

Anything that CRT has ever said about "range" or "place" is just a guideline and has no legal validity, so you can't rely on that either, it's just advice, and they can change that any time they like.  as, of course, they have.

But while your marina may not be residential, they may be happy for you to spend a night a fortnight on your boat there, in which case you haven't a problem, because each time you go back to the marina (presumably for at least a day rather than just turning round and exiting again) the clock gets reset.  That would be safer than having a home mooring oop north you never visit at all.

In the end, it comes down to whether you want to pick a fight with CRT or not.  Some do, and some win.  Some don't.  Some ought to have done and still don't - right, wrong, fairness and legality don't have a lot to do with it, mostly it comes down to who has the most money and appetite for the fight.

A first rate summing up of the true situation, with the exception of one element of the last sentence. Standing up to C&RT, even if they select you for special treatment by way of their quasi-legal abuse of the Section 8 process and take you to Court, does NOT necessarily have to cost you anything other than a bit of your own time and effort. 

All that is needed is the filing at Court of a appropriate and within time limits response to the County Court Claim for Declaratory and Injunctive Relief that C&RT will serve on you. The Court will then refuse what they're asking for and order you to file a Defence, which you can do yourself using the help and guidance that's readily available, and has been proved so effective before. If C&RT then don't back down, you have the option of letting the matter go to hearing, or simply forcing C&RT to discontinue after you wreck/destroy their case by way of temporary compliance with the unlawful demands they will have imposed on you as a condition of not revoking your boat Licence/PBC, and simultaneously applying for a new boat Licence/PBC.

If you go for the latter option it won't cost you anything, but it will saddle C&RT with a costs bill running into thousands, and from which they will have gained absolutely nothing. Repeat as, and if, necessary, until they get fed up and leave you alone to get on with doing what you have paid for and are perfectly entitled to do.

Edited by PhilAtterley
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11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

...cruising ranges, but when CRT introduced that concept I didn't start using the home mooring again, I gave it up as there was no longer any advantage to having it.

 

This "cruising ranges" thing has been mentioned a couple of times, I've not come across it before, has anyone got a link?

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I have a home mooring, moved about 10 miles and 20 locks at Christmas, couldn't get back due to lock repairs. Was then due in the dry dock in May, so moved a couple of Km every 14 days. Boat still not back at the mooring, just been further , about 30 miles, and am slowly on my way back, coming home between short  trips. Over this period I have had 2 emails raising concerns about my being in a "general area" too long. One was from Debbyfiggy herself, I am honoured.  I replied saying which "general areas"  had been in over the time, telling them I am well aware of their "guidelines" and afaik am compliant. They then say OK. But not "sorry for troubling you with unnecessary nagmails." . The second nagmail arrived on the 14th day of one of my stops! 

I just want to be able to go boating in my local area without having to slog back up the hill every time I go out, to reset the clock, or feeling like I am on the radar. 

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All this hassle because CRT do not have enough public moorings and a coherent pricing structure for mooring and cruising.

 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Back in about 2012 CRT issued a guide note and it included a bit about Ghost moorings - a ghost mooring is one you never use, say in a much cheaper area of the country - I don't know if CRT have changed their stance on this as a result of various court cases but this is what they said - 

"If we never observe your boat on the mooring you’ve declared, or we see you repeatedly on the towpath in an area distant from the declared mooring, we will contact you and ask you to confirm your mooring status.  We may use powers under the data protection legislation to ask the mooring operator to confirm that you do hold the mooring you’ve declared.  But either way, if you never use the mooring, it amounts to a false declaration which makes the licence invalid.  We are just starting to apply this approach where a ‘ghost’ mooring is suspected."

So you may wish to check with them to see if their stance has changed before paying for a mooring you never use.

Edited by Chewbacka
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On 15/07/2017 at 16:57, Horace42 said:

All this hassle because CRT do not have enough public moorings and a coherent pricing structure for mooring and cruising.

 

 

How do you come to that conclusion? The hassle is because a small minority of boaters chose to abuse the basic and clearly understandable rules.

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5 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

So you may wish to check with them to see if their stance has changed before paying for a mooring you never use.

 

I wasn't very clear on this, but I do intend on having a mooring which is used for two weeks every 10 weeks or so, depending on how many nice stops there are along the way

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2 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

I have a home mooring, moved about 10 miles and 20 locks at Christmas, couldn't get back due to lock repairs. Was then due in the dry dock in May, so moved a couple of Km every 14 days. Boat still not back at the mooring, just been further , about 30 miles, and am slowly on my way back, coming home between short  trips. Over this period I have had 2 emails raising concerns about my being in a "general area" too long. One was from Debbyfiggy herself, I am honoured.  I replied saying which "general areas"  had been in over the time, telling them I am well aware of their "guidelines" and afaik am compliant. They then say OK. But not "sorry for troubling you with unnecessary nagmails." . The second nagmail arrived on the 14th day of one of my stops! 

I just want to be able to go boating in my local area without having to slog back up the hill every time I go out, to reset the clock, or feeling like I am on the radar. 

There's nothing anyone except you can do about you feeling uncomfortable about being "on the radar", but fact is you're not doing anything that isn't 100% legal. This nonsense about boats with a (home) mooring being 'in the same general area' should be treated with the contempt it deserves, and simply ignored. You have paid for a Licence which entitles you to use any part of any of the C&RT controlled waterways throughout the period of validity of that Licence, . . . the frequency and extent of that use is entirely a matter for you, and you alone, to decide

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On 15/07/2017 at 17:05, Heffalump said:

I wasn't very clear on this, but I do intend on having a mooring which is used for two weeks every 10 weeks or so, depending on how many nice stops there are along the way

 

In that case you have nothing to worry about.

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

How do you come to that conclusion? The hassle is because a small minority of boaters chose to abuse the basic and clearly understandable rules.

I find the first point to be true.  There just aren't any residential moorings around me.

PS - if anyone can find a residential mooring within commuting distance to Brackley and Bicester, please let me know!

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Just now, Heffalump said:

I wasn't very clear on this, but I do intend on having a mooring which is used for two weeks every 10 weeks or so, depending on how many nice stops there are along the way

Yes I know, and you were clear, I should have made more clear that as others were suggesting to you to go down the ghost mooring route as it can be a lot cheaper, I just thought I would warn you of the possible problems if you do.

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