Jump to content

How much Solar v Batteries? What do you have?


Featured Posts

1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

Why 10?

 

Because that's how long a battery typically takes to charge. 

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

So the equation for "Five times faster" looks like...

5 x fast = 

??? 

It makes no sense.

Does he mean "As little as one fifth of the time"?  If so, why didn't he say so?  It couldn't be that a nonsense claim can't be disproved could it?

 

I suggest 10 hours is actually quite fast for fully charging a battery.

So plugging 10 hours into your equation...

5 x fast =

5 x 10 hours = 50 hours

 

So that nice Mr Sterling is claiming his AtoB charger will make my batteries take up to 50 hours to charge. Yes?

 

Any problems there, anyone?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a bit like the BMV giving a figure for resolution of the SoC display whilst simultaneously failing to give a figure for SoC accuracy (because they can't). So they will proudly display a meaningless figure to two decimal places (or whatever). Whoopdedo!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, nb Innisfree said:

Battery charging in an inexact science with endless variables, shifting sands,  which leaves the field wide open for the likes of Sterling and others to make various claims for their products. 

 

Sterling make a very precise-sounding claim though, which others here claim to understand but cannot explain.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Sterling make a very precise-sounding claim though, which others here claim to understand but cannot explain.

As far as I can see Sterling use the phrase 'charge a battery' but don't define exactly what that is. Charging a battery could be a rapid bulk charge or until charge amps has stopped reducing, which might take days, or any point between the two. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I am going to disagree.

In an earlier post, you said my first statement was wrong in that the AtoB fools the alternator into charging at a faster rate. The Sterling charger reduces the voltage from the alternator - not increases thus fools it - and not increases voltage as you say. It is  not the same as other Ato B units.

It is a fact that we got more amps into our batteries with the Sterling unit.  Probably 25% of the boats we knew had these units and the owners saw the benefit.  No one in the NB world seems to use Sterling which is surprising considering the number of sailing boats that use them. I doubt Sterling would be in existence if your coments above are true as they would have been hammered by Trading Standards. Sterling do not quote at what stage of charge their Ato B units are 500% more efficient but for us we saw a big efficiency change at the higher end of charging.

Rather than continually saying the chemistry doesnt allow faster charging, why not consider the facts that people who actually use this kit see a benefit. If I had another yacht I would certainly add a Sterling AtoB. I am holding off doing so on my NB as I run the engine far more and it seems to charge far better at tickover than the Volvo unit I had.

 

 

Right - the highlighted section shows a degree of misunderstanding about alternators and charging systems.

Put any type of load you like across an alternator that has a "resistance" that is low enough to allow the alternator to run at or close to maximum output (amps) and the output voltage will fall to a figure where amps X volts = the alternator's maximum power output. That is any load, be it flat batteries, a big metal bar, or a low resistance half of what I suspect is a transformer and some form of oscillator as in the A to B. Note its the alternator that automatically reduces its voltage to stay within its designed maximum wattage of output - NOT the load.

The A to B as far as  I can tell presents a low "resistance" load to the alternator so the alternator runs at maximum output (Watts). It then converts this to a very high frequency and high voltage AC and uses switched mode type technology to produce the charging voltage required. I suspect a bit like an MPPT solar controller.

You will never get any more watts out of it than you put in and in fact it will be a bit less because of inefficiencies in the unit and what it needs to drive its electronics.

The A to B forces the alternator to maximum output and then messes about to get the charging voltage required.

The advanced alternator controllers (no A to Bs - different technology) simply short out the alternator's regulator when they think they need to and put their own, higher voltage regulator in its place.

Neither can do anything when the alternator would be at maximum output because in both cases the alternator is setting the output voltage so it does not exceed its maximum Watts.

Once the batteries start to charge up a bit the charging current will start to drop so the charging voltage can rise to maintain the maximum watts - again neither device can better this.

At some point the charging voltage will have risen enough  to cause battery damage so the regulator is set below this point, sometimes well below and occasionally above it as a well respected engine mariniser found out when faced with customers who did not regularly top up their batteries. It is only now that either device can start to "improve" the charging by raising the voltage above whatever the alternator's regulator is set to. This may well be about 20 to 30 minutes into charging, longer with very flat batteries. The advanced regulators will just sit there until this point abut the A to B will be working all the time but to no effect.

Once the above point of charging has been reached the voltages will be messed about with by both devices, probably pulsed high and low in an attempt to minimise water loss and battery damage. The voltage "window" both devices work in with modern alternators is very small, only a few tenths of a volt.

A to Bs or Advanced regulators WILL shorten the charging time. On a well specified and installed system by not a lot, on a poorly specified and installed system by a lot. They will only do this during a comparatively short period of time roughly analogous to the acceptance phase from a mains charger but they are likely to be pulsing so actually providing less charge than the owner may think. The question is are they worth their cost. The yachtsmen evidently think so but is that because they have poor charging systems, they fall for the marketing, or because they have paid a lot of money so it must work (remember the poster who recently said just that).

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am quite astounded by the vitriol poured out here about Sterling products. Whilst the canal world seems dominated by Victron, the sailing community see Sterling as premium products. Funny that a 5 year battery life span seems normal in sailing yachts whereas less than a year seems possible for canals - how can you destroy your batteries in 5 months? Certainly this is NOT down to different suppliers but maybe you have something to learn from the 'other side'.

Someone seemed to be saying I was a gullable fool for having the AtoB. Do your bog standard cheap batteries last 5 years+?

I am out of here.

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I am quite astounded by the vitriol poured out here about Sterling products.

Vitriol? Where?

Sterling supply cost-effective, mostly reliable kit. Some of it designed to part the gullible from their money, some of it very clever design. 

I've seen scorn poured on some of the marketing bumph but that's true of just about any manufacturer anywhere and nothing specific to Charles Sterling's offerings. 

Edited by WotEver
Tryping
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Funny that a 5 year battery life span seems normal in sailing yachts whereas less than a year seems possible for canals

Not really. The frugal users on here commonly get 9+ years out of their batteries. It's all down to usage and charging regimes. Heavy users with poor charging will destroy batteries very quickly, it's the nature of the beast. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/14/2017 at 20:34, Bettie Boo said:

We have 4 x 250w panels, & 8 x T150's + starter and BT batteries. (the T150's are 12 not 24)

We are power hungry though, washer, fridge, freezer, lg screen tv and all the other electronic gagets that most folks have, although we don't use a hair dryer.  I've limited myself to only having 4 electrical kitchen appliances...bread maker (in case we get froze in & I like homemade bread), slow cooker (which in hinesight I hardly ever use...we use the wood/coal stove as a slow cooker in the winter months), my food processer (I do a fair amount of cooking/baking), and of course my coffee machine

Heating is via the wood/coal stove and on occassion we turn on the central heating, but this is not a daily occurance just when it gets close to being proper cold :)

not that it shoud make any difference other then roof space, but we are a 10.10 WB

& yes we still need to run the engine daily in the winter months, but the solar saves a heck of a diesel in the summer months

Hope this helps

Hi Bettie

Thank you very much, I have found your post truly useful! You really understood the kind of advice I was hoping for. Most of the rest of the thread seems to have descended into quite a technical debate that although is helpful in places - I do not really understand. I think I'm going to copy something like your set up. :)

Caitlin 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Cpickle said:

Hi Bettie

Thank you very much, I have found your post truly useful! You really understood the kind of advice I was hoping for. Most of the rest of the thread seems to have descended into quite a technical debate that although is helpful in places - I do not really understand. I think I'm going to copy something like your set up. :)

Caitlin 

Hi Caitlin their are better batteries than Trojans though, the Gel tubular things now out have better cycles by a long way and they will be what I put on the new boat, even though I have had great life out of my full tractions. Do some internet research first before buying it always pays of in the long run

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, peterboat said:

Hi Caitlin their are better batteries than Trojans though, the Gel tubular things now out have better cycles by a long way and they will be what I put on the new boat, even though I have had great life out of my full tractions. Do some internet research first before buying it always pays of in the long run

Thanks Peter, I have been looking at the Gel batteries since I saw your comment, not sure I can afford them at the moment though. This boat fit out business is certainly expensive!! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I am quite astounded by the vitriol poured out here about Sterling products. Whilst the canal world seems dominated by Victron, the sailing community see Sterling as premium products. Funny that a 5 year battery life span seems normal in sailing yachts whereas less than a year seems possible for canals - how can you destroy your batteries in 5 months? Certainly this is NOT down to different suppliers but maybe you have something to learn from the 'other side'.

Someone seemed to be saying I was a gullable fool for having the AtoB. Do your bog standard cheap batteries last 5 years+?

I am out of here.

I think that we have been saying that your yacht electrical system may have been substandard or your instrumentation may have been misleading you. Plus what looks like suspect battery and charging knowledge upon which you base your ideas.

There is nothing wrong with Sterling kit although it seem much is re-badged and he marketing is in many cases questionable. The largest problem is the proprietor's attitude and that's enough to persuade me to avoid the brand. I want to feel that if I ever get a problem the company will be willing to help me rather than be rude.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Cpickle said:

Thanks Peter, I have been looking at the Gel batteries since I saw your comment, not sure I can afford them at the moment though. This boat fit out business is certainly expensive!! 

IMHO... I would stick to basic lead acid batteries to begin with until you get used to your eventual set-up. Once you learn how to look after these then buy the more expensive variants. I personally just buy good quality lead acid that I can maintain. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Cpickle said:

Hi Bettie

Thank you very much, I have found your post truly useful! You really understood the kind of advice I was hoping for. Most of the rest of the thread seems to have descended into quite a technical debate that although is helpful in places - I do not really understand. I think I'm going to copy something like your set up. :)

Caitlin 

Hi Caitlin,

I just noticed that I made a typo in my original post; it should have been T105's not T150's, they are 4+ years old now and seem to be holding out fine.  We have not been on shore power at all now, for the past 4 years.    And not to be misleading, we run the engine when using the washing machine regardless of what time of year it is, or how sunny a day.  It's a Candy slimline 7k load capacity.

& as someone has kindly point out already, we are not considered experienced boaters as we have only been living off grid for a little over 4 years now - mind you we live the life style that suits us & haven't had the need to replace our battery bank yet.  So I guess we are either doing something right OR have been just really lucky.

btw - Tony Brooks and WotEver, both know what they are talking about when it comes to battery management.  Tony at one point gave classes on the subject along with loads of other mechanical issues, and engine maintenance.  A wise person would not ignor advice from Tony.  I remember how hard it is to figure out who gives sound advice around here from those who simply feel the desire to type something, when your new and it takes some time to figure out the wheat from the chaf.  Another who gives sound advice and is in the trade is Richard (RWLP)  not sure if I have those letters in the correct order or not, but you'll soon catch on.

Good luck B~

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

.......may have been substandard or your instrumentation may have been misleading you. Plus what looks like suspect battery and charging knowledge upon which you base your ideas.

 

Tony,

I usually read your stuff with reverence both here and in the magazine.........however,

I very much doubt the two sentances you quoted. Dont be so presumtive.

My batteries lasted 5 years+ with no problems whatsoever - and it was not frugal use - you (a general you) cannot and we cannot do frugal use living aboard.

The cabling was all fine. If I was mislead and the SoC was 80% not 100% when charged then the batteries would have died long ago. If my  batttery and charging knowledge was suspect then again they would have died long ago.

The only potential weakness was the brand new Volvo alternator which was only 70A but was matched OK to the size of the battery bank.

Finally I do take offence in the comment posted above. That sentance suggests that I had a problem with my charging/batteries. I did not. They lasted 5 years plus on a brand new boat and performance was better with the Sterling unit. If there was a system defect with the original layout - ie the alternator, then the problem was certianly cured with the AtoB. Hence the AtoB was certainly worth buying.

Interesting that ALL those throwing bricks at the Sterling unit HAVE NEVER USED ONE (and maybe never even seen one).

Looking after batteries is not Rocket science but you seem to be making that way. A bit of common sense and it is easy with the right tools.

 

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something I notice repeatedly about batteries is they seem to degrade to about 50%-60% of new capacity fairly quickly when not treated correctly, then the degradation stops. There seems to be no technical explanation for this but in my experience over many decades and boats, this is what happens.

If the reduced capacity is still enough for the use to which they are being put, then yes the user will claim 'they are fine'. 

When I say I wrecked my recent set of Trojonoids in five months, I mean their capacity fell to 50%-60% of new capacity in that period despite my best efforts at looking after them. They still work fine.

I feel faintly insulted by Dr Bob's assertion that just a bit of common sense and the right tools to look after batteries. I feel I have both. gave it my best shot and failed.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Something I notice repeatedly about batteries is they seem to degrade to about 50%-60% of new capacity fairly quickly when not treated correctly, then the degradation stops. There seems to be no technical explanation for this but in my experience over many decades and boats, this is what happens.

If the reduced capacity is still enough for the use to which they are being put, then yes the user will claim 'they are fine'. 

When I say I wrecked my recent set of Trojonoids in five months, I mean their capacity fell to 50%-60% of new capacity in that period despite my best efforts at looking after them. They still work fine.

I feel faintly insulted by Dr Bob's assertion that just a bit of common sense and the right tools to look after batteries. I feel I have both. gave it my best shot and failed.

Mike, I didnt mean to insult you and apologise if that is the way it came over. Your experience is real and shows that it doesnt always go by the book.  There is more to it than the chemistry that has been documented here.

In our case we hadnt lost 50% of our capacity in years 2,3 etc as the voltage at rest showed more capacity than that but cant remember the exact number. We started with 440Ahr so a 50% decrease would have had a significant effect on days when we used 80 Ahrs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Tony,

I usually read your stuff with reverence both here and in the magazine.........however,

I very much doubt the two sentances you quoted. Dont be so presumtive.

My batteries lasted 5 years+ with no problems whatsoever - and it was not frugal use - you (a general you) cannot and we cannot do frugal use living aboard.

The cabling was all fine. If I was mislead and the SoC was 80% not 100% when charged then the batteries would have died long ago. If my  batttery and charging knowledge was suspect then again they would have died long ago.

The only potential weakness was the brand new Volvo alternator which was only 70A but was matched OK to the size of the battery bank.

Finally I do take offence in the comment posted above. That sentance suggests that I had a problem with my charging/batteries. I did not. They lasted 5 years plus on a brand new boat and performance was better with the Sterling unit. If there was a system defect with the original layout - ie the alternator, then the problem was certianly cured with the AtoB. Hence the AtoB was certainly worth buying.

Interesting that ALL those throwing bricks at the Sterling unit HAVE NEVER USED ONE (and maybe never even seen one).

Looking after batteries is not Rocket science but you seem to be making that way. A bit of common sense and it is easy with the right tools.

 

Having installed quite a lot of Sterling Alternator Regulators over several Decades I do believe that they Do improve bulk charging times and generally improve Battery performance and longevity.

Have even Run my Boats engine for charging with the Sterling Reg. turned off to see the difference and it is noticeable,the Battery state of charge is less the next morning than if the Sterling Reg.had been used.

Have to agree with Doctor Bob

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, cereal tiller said:

Having installed quite a lot of Sterling Alternator Regulators over several Decades I do believe that they Do improve bulk charging times and generally improve Battery performance and longevity.

I have a Sterling Alternator controller on the sailing boat. I reckon it does make a difference to my inadequate alternator. The last battery lasted 7 years (but is supplimented wtih a small panel) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 18/07/2017 at 09:40, Dr Bob said:

Mike, I didnt mean to insult you and apologise if that is the way it came over. Your experience is real and shows that it doesnt always go by the book.  There is more to it than the chemistry that has been documented here.

In our case we hadnt lost 50% of our capacity in years 2,3 etc as the voltage at rest showed more capacity than that but cant remember the exact number. We started with 440Ahr so a 50% decrease would have had a significant effect on days when we used 80 Ahrs.

 

Thank you for your apology. I did say only 'faintly' though!

Yes even the great* NickNorman agrees there is something sublime and inexplicable about battery behaviour. Long ago he once commented on here how much better he liked his new set of Trojans and how much more abuse they would take compared to the el cheapo leisures he had previously been using. He had not changed the way he charged or equalised one jot yet the Trojans were just 'better' in every way. (Who would imagine NN abusing his batteries anyway?!!)

I would have quite liked to have bought a set of Trojans and used them for a winter to see if they degrade in a similar way to how my Trojanoids crumbled, but that won't be possible as installation of my Whispergen will be complete soon, and that will change everything.

 

* Only kidding :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Tony,

I usually read your stuff with reverence both here and in the magazine.........however,

I very much doubt the two sentances you quoted. Dont be so presumtive.

My batteries lasted 5 years+ with no problems whatsoever - and it was not frugal use - you (a general you) cannot and we cannot do frugal use living aboard.

The cabling was all fine. If I was mislead and the SoC was 80% not 100% when charged then the batteries would have died long ago. If my  batttery and charging knowledge was suspect then again they would have died long ago.

The only potential weakness was the brand new Volvo alternator which was only 70A but was matched OK to the size of the battery bank.

Finally I do take offence in the comment posted above. That sentance suggests that I had a problem with my charging/batteries. I did not. They lasted 5 years plus on a brand new boat and performance was better with the Sterling unit. If there was a system defect with the original layout - ie the alternator, then the problem was certianly cured with the AtoB. Hence the AtoB was certainly worth buying.

Interesting that ALL those throwing bricks at the Sterling unit HAVE NEVER USED ONE (and maybe never even seen one).

Looking after batteries is not Rocket science but you seem to be making that way. A bit of common sense and it is easy with the right tools.

 

I believe that you are complaining about the sentences I emboldened in my post above the last one. If so it is perfectly clear that you have some degree of misunderstanding about charging systems so I tried to help you correct it. Even Mr Sterling, if he a was not in one of his "insulting" moods, would have to admit that the A to B does not and can not reduce the alternator's output voltage. What it can and does do is cause the  alternator itself to reduce the output voltage. It seeks to maintain the alternator's output at maximum at times when other systems or no extra systems at all would be having the voltage controlled by the alternator's own regulator. As I explained it does this by presenting the alternator with a load that has a lower resistance than flat batteries. The reduction in alternator voltage at high loads is to do with inductance in the stator at high current flows. That assertion that the A to B reduces the alternator's output voltage is wrong and shows a lack of understanding.

I agree that looking after batteries is not rocket science as long as you have the right tools and I would add knowledge. My simple leisure batteries are now 4.5 years old and seem to be fine. That is without any fancy charge enhancing equipment but I do have a voltmeter and ammeter. Same alternator output but no Sterling. How does that support your assertion that its the A to B that did the trick and not the solar and wind? As far as the right tools are concerned I believe the BEP is another amp hour counter and a such long experience  says that most boaters with an amphour counting type gauge who quote percentages of charge are likely to be badly mislead. It is true that you changed from giving percentages to saying putting 40 Ah back into the batteries but again that displays a degree of lack of knowledge because you (nor anyone else) have any more than a very rough idea of how many of those 40 Ah were converted to stored chemicals, how many produced heat, and how many produced gas. If you say that just before you shut the engine down the BEP was indicating a charging current of around 1% of the battery capacity I would accept the batteries were as close to 100% charged as you were likely to get them. Then there is the question of the true state of charge when you started engine charging. I have seen no re4sted voltage readings that would give this information with some degree of accuracy.

No one has said that the A to B or any other advanced regulator does not reduce charge times. In fact we have all said they will. The question arises of by how much. Statements about them getting a battery bank from 80% to 100% of fully charged in a short period of time are wrong as Wotever said. If they did they would hasten the destruction of the batteries. It is the statement about  getting the batteries 100% charged that is being questioned, not the fact they shorten the absorption charging time in most (but not all cases). I doubt they would do much to help with one of Beta's 14.8V alternators.

Any such charge enhancer is excellent at covering up system problems.

Ditto shortening the time required to get the bank to roughly 80% of fully charged but by how much or the cost effectiveness is open to question.

They will never allow charging to 100% in an hour or so and to believe so or to lead others to believe so is wrong in my view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Paringa said:

IMHO... I would stick to basic lead acid batteries to begin with until you get used to your eventual set-up. Once you learn how to look after these then buy the more expensive variants. I personally just buy good quality lead acid that I can maintain. 

I disagree I jumped straight in with full tractions 13 years on still fine as I have said I would change these for the GTP batteries as they are maintenance free and the cycles look very promising. The OP is fitting a lot of solar, they would need a quality controller that allowed the settings to be altered to maximize  battery life,  and after that follow Bettie Boos or my system and they would last a long time

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There a fair bit of crap getting posted on this thread, I might write something later, but its a sunny day and there's big maintenance to get done.

Standard cheapo leisures are good for about 300 cycles (down to about 50%). No matter how well one maintains then they are unlikely to do much better than this. If not looked after then its a lot less than 300 and as Mike says they do appear to go down to a low capacity and then stick there.

If batteries last 5 years that's because either they have not done many cycles or the owner is happy to live with hugely reduced capacity.

..............Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should have added to my post above (97) that in many cases the cost of any form of alternator "enhancer" would produce better results if used to buy solar so the engine can be shut off early in the day at about 80% fully charged and the solar being left to do the rest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.