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Why a Narrow Boat or GRP


Calranthe

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1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

If you can't drive into a lock without hitting it then it is either training or quit boating as it just isn't for you!

The latter would always be the worst case so in this case I would suggest training even though I don't always agree with it.

We have not passed a narrowboat all week either. So what?

 

37 minutes ago, WotEver said:

.... including Dr Bob's post that you just quoted, which is that GRP boats are the best choice for rivers and coastal (they're boat shaped for a start) .....

NC  -  just remind us - what's the name of that 'river' you are currently cruising on.

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14 hours ago, Calranthe said:

Then all those thousands of GRP boats that cruise the canal's of the uk and have done so for 30+ years and still survive must be made of magic pixie dust, locks can be an issue to anyone the advice on here seems to be go in to a lock solo or after the NB.

I have personally seen GRP boats have "knocks" and bangs like a dodgem car and still be around years later.

I've just towed a little GRP boat about 40 miles going through loads of locks including bingly 5 rise with a 50ft narrow boat and didn't have any issues but the lock keeper didn't want to let us into and the GRP shear the lock but told him I've been in loads of locks. I did smash it into a swing bridge that put a hole in it 

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15 hours ago, Calranthe said:

You may want to reread the thread, see this thread was never about concerns like that this thread was about starting a lively discussion about the differences in NB and GRP and why people decide on one over the other, a lot of passion but sadly also  a few  very closed minded people but that is also okay you do not have to be on this thread, I have really enjoyed reading different peoples opinions, as for my boat we are hoping to go on our epic journey on wednesday.

NB are not right for us and never will be it just does not suit us but hopefully I have shown in this thread that I can accept and be fine that for other people its the best thing since sliced bread.

 

The discussion is based upon the largely false premise that inland waterway boaters make such a choice. Do prospective buyers ask themselves whether they want a steel or GRP boat? Or do they say "I want a boat, what are my requirements?" I suggest it is the latter and typically those requirements are;-

1. I want to cruise the inland waterways network (which I suspect for many comes before they think about buying a boat)

2. I want a permanent bed for me and my partner, a bathroom, a galley and somewhere to sit plus capability for guests.

3. The boat must not cost more than £x,000

The first requirement means narrow beam and the second usually results in a length above say 35' and there simply aren't GRP boats on the market of 35' x 7' and above. There must be a reason. On narrow canals I view GRP boats mostly as day/weekend boats (and yes I have met people who live on them).

You seem very keen to convince either yourself or others that GRP is at least equivalent to steel. Take Graham Davis' point about there being a GRP boat on the BCN Challenge (pretty much the harshest event you can put a narrow beam craft through). Forget the theory you learn from the Internet and consider why it's the only one of 40+ entrants and is outnumbered by timber boats (only insane people - knowingly or otherwise - buy timber boats).

I don't even think you have made the choice; you have done what everyone else does which is to buy within your means because ultimately requirement number 3 can have a nasty habit of modifying requirements 1 and 2. I believe your original requirement  was for a coastal water capable boat.

The fact that there are couple of posters on the fringes of the inland waterways who have nice GRP craft is an irrelevance. I don't think you have yet grasped this inland waterways thing. Many (probably most) here want to go to Brum rather than to sea.

JP

ETA - I was genuine about getting the engine fixed. It would be good to see you on the move. It would also help you understand.

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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I more than anyone else want to get this boat moving up the TMC in a way it has all happened in a good way, see up to this point I was going to have a maximum of 3 days away from Paola for the move and at the forefront of my mind would have been a time table.

Now that Paola wants to come with me and experience this first real trip together this will be the make or break of this adventure, we have 7 days to get the boat to Aston making a lot of stops, testing out every part of the boat, putting theory to practice, taking it slow and easy, no rush.

Best case scenario ? We come back here with all the stories of how it went and what we are planning next.

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Good luck to you and genuine best wishes. For me, I've loved the water ways for many years and always wanted a narrow boat. Nothing wrong with GRP but for us trad NB is a dream come true.  And with a Squirrel to heat us, comfy double bed, proper kitchen and pump out bog she's a home from home.

I worry how you will cope in such a small space and with such limited facilities. 

Ajax was built in the early 80s and as a 'project' boat my no means expensive.  

As you said already, each to their own, but for us it was only ever going to be a NB  good thing as living out on the Aylesbury arm our locks are narrow. 

Just saying, there is a rich and beautiful history of our canal network and we prefer to enjoy it without a tupperware craft :)

 

 

 

 

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The answer is Dawncraft/Highbridge, the grp narrowboat. There was a dc42 on flea bay for £1000 recently. Sold my 22 because it was getting too high to climb up to the gunnels with dodgy hips. Got a 32 ft steel NB, with an outboard on the back. That keeps it highly manoeuvrable. 

As for locks, last in first out, set next lock for sharing boat. be wary about who you share with.

 

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I've just sold and delivered a Buckingham 20 onto the canal and here are just a few reasons why it could be preferable to a 20ft steel boat

1.Took 5 minutes to launch off the trailer and can be towed by any big car

2.Young guy who bought it can get a spartan but solid boat, plus funds for insurance, bits for BSS and an old outboard for around a thousand quid. Tell me how that is possible in steel.

3.Said guy who bought it will have a more forgiving learning curve. He won't find out steel or engine needs £5k  spending on urgent repairs. He''l be able to make it comfortable and enjoy his boating and not be bankrupted by it in the first months.

4.If he decides the boating life is for him and it comes time to upgrade, he will have a better idea of what he needs and whether bigger boats he looks at represent good value for money. If he decides that the boating life isn't for him, he will be able to sell on the boat for a similar amount because it isn't a wreck, it's basic but solid. 

So, I can see why you are drawn towards GRP over steel especially as the Buckingham is very roomy for its modest length. Like the Dawncraft / Highbridge boats they are well suited to the canals and non-tidal rivers. The longer Highbridge ones feel very narrowboaty inside, like long and narrow. Without checking behind panelling you wouldn't for sure know what the hull was made of from inside. 

Now a  Buckingham 20 is a different boat from say a  Norman 20. In my experience both are well built with solid & generous GRP layup but I'd probably take a B20 for the canals and an N20 for close coastal use. The huge tall slab sides of the Buckingham give it a great feeling of space inside whereas the lines of the Norman would give me more confidence on lumpy water. Even within the same model of boat there are variations; the Freeman 22 came in narrow and river versions. The river version was 7'6" wide, more space than its narrow sibling but with the expense of loss of access to narrow canals so even comparing different versions of the same craft can be like comparing apples and oranges.

Considering what would be the ideal boat at 50' the first question would have to be its intended use. A 50' Prout cat  or Nelson 48/50 will be far more capable and spacious than a 50'NB but you'll pay for that in cash and access restrictions. More expensive and salty water only. Want cheap and cheerful boating in as many places as possible (just not 'going to sea'), get a sub 19' cabin cruiser or lifting keel trailer sailer. Bags of fun, cheap as chips but as basic as it gets without going for a dinghy and boom tent.

Why do I like a longish NB for a shallow muddy ditch? It's suited to its environment. You can't go wider than 6'10" here and they don't make glassfibre tubes of the size and shape. The canal is shallow and grounding common. It pains me to hear rocks grinding against gelcoat but small boats can get away with a lot because of their shallow draft compared to the 2'6" ish draft of a fair sized NB. Talking of draft, it applies up top too as already mentioned. Some bridges will take out a forgotten chimney on a NB so some quite small GRP cruisers are still simply too high to go under with screen and canopy up.

When talking of canopies, think why it is that you see a lot of old GRP cruisers with a canopy but very few NBs with a pramhood. It's not the cost as considered as a % of cost of the boat it is far higher on the old cruisers. It is the sheer amount of extra space they give for a cruiser. Often on 20' boats and shorter this is the only place where it is possible to stand up. Even in a tiny tiny 20' NB you can stand up along the full length of the cabin.

As someone previously and far more succinctly put it, horses for courses.

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Having just popped over to this thread from the one ranting about being hit three times in Rugby, I'd suggest OP goes and reads that one.

I've had Wooden ply cruisers (Cheap and cheerful)

I've had a narrow beam GRP cruiser (Dawncraft 30 centre cockpit BMC 1500 diesel) It floated like a ping pong ball on the surface and steered fine until the wind blew or the week had 7 days in it. Lock walls left the boat's sides marked dreadfully.  Finally a cowboy builder's collapsing scaffold resulted in repair work that on a steel boat would probably not even have been noticed. Canal boating in GRP is an experience of evasive action after evasive action usually resulting in frustration and tranquilisers.

I had a wide beam Project 31 (Twin Perkins) oddles of oomph! Great on the Trent and out on The Wash.  Pain in the arse pottering through The Beeston cut from Beeston to Nottingham.

I'm now on my 3rd steel hull, perfect for canals, wide and narrow, lack of guts on a river.

It's all horses for courses really, you decide what you want, pays your money and then start learning what's what.

I've never had condensation in a steel hull, but always on cruisers.

I've never had a stove on a cruiser that burns tins and stones but always on a narrow boat.

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14 hours ago, Jak said:

Good luck to you and genuine best wishes. For me, I've loved the water ways for many years and always wanted a narrow boat. Nothing wrong with GRP but for us trad NB is a dream come true.  And with a Squirrel to heat us, comfy double bed, proper kitchen and pump out bog she's a home from home.

I worry how you will cope in such a small space and with such limited facilities. 

Ajax was built in the early 80s and as a 'project' boat my no means expensive.  

As you said already, each to their own, but for us it was only ever going to be a NB  good thing as living out on the Aylesbury arm our locks are narrow. 

Just saying, there is a rich and beautiful history of our canal network and we prefer to enjoy it without a tupperware craft :)

 

 

 

 

One man's dream is another man's nightmare.

I'm not sure why people with tin tubes keep mentioning comfy beds. Our bed is very comfy, permanently made and longer and wider than a standard double. 

 

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ALL boats are in some way a compromise. I loved my tin widebeam ugly boat the space was fantastic. Plastic boats can also be fantastic. I am not a hobby boater and there is a humungous difference between hobby boating and living aboard. I like to be able to move say from York to Bath, inland and stop off at Fradley junction for a few days etc this can ONLY be done with a boat of narrowbeam proportions of whatever substance. As a iveaboard I have found FOR ME that having the extra length is way more important than missing out on a few small canals but can still get North to south without a truck and crane. There is one reason and one reason only to buy a stupid narrowbeam boat and that is some bloody accountants many years ago landed us with bloomin stupid narrow bridge holes and locks etc. I don't at present have full length but there is actualy more space in this 68 foot colecraft than there was in my 70 foot Hudson so I am well happy but I would be happy with a plastic boat if I was going widebeam for a while.

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59 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Caledonian Canal 

The Caly canal is hardly a place to take a narrowboat. Useful to have Steel boat in the locks given all the Hoseasons boat that dont have a clue but a Narrow Boat would be well out of place on Loch Ness. We took our 40ft Yacht with 60ft mast and 2.4 metre draught through there 3 times. It's more 3 big lochs (ie Scottish Lakes) joined by very wide canals. Defo a place for GRP.

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On 15/07/2017 at 08:51, Naughty Cal said:

Perhaps you should go on a helmsmans course!

I probably will when we buy our next boat, actually. Still, I'll be pleasantly surprised if I never again get caught out by a gust of wind, a fast-flowing bywash, a submerged obstacle, or, yes, a slight misjudgement in speed or angle of approach.

While I'm taking my helmsman's course, maybe you should pop along to Specsavers?;)

Image result for muddy ditchImage result for llangollen canal

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17 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Why?

If you can't see the difference between a muddy ditch and a picturesque canal even when presented with photographic evidence then I believe the answer to be self-evident ;)

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Well that's a muddy track not a ditch. Perhaps you should go to Specsavers!

 

ETA: and if that is the best that the canal system has to offer then we are not missing out on much!

Edited by Naughty Cal
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34 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Why?

As WotEver suggests, it might be a useful first step in recognising the difference between a muddy ditch and a beautiful waterway. Then I'd just have to persuade you that the Llangollen, Macclesfield, Oxford etc. are not in the Midlands, and that there are more than 'a few' such canals in the country, and we might be some way towards you recognising that 'just' being able to cruise the narrow canals is actually a pretty good reason for a canal lover to choose a narrow beam boat.

Sorry, I know I'm taking this much too personally, but I just found that description of the nature, number and location(s) of the narrow canals so wide of the mark, I feel I need to defend them against such slanders! - and provide another perspective for people who might be trying to convince themselves that they're 'not missing much' in terms of cruising options by choosing a widebeam boat. I tend to do the same sort of thing when a debate about 'full length' vs. 'go anywhere' narrowboats crops up. I've done hundreds of miles of cruising in areas I couldn't have accessed in a boat with a less 'restricted' length or beam, and have hundreds more still to do.

14 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Well that's a muddy track not a ditch. Perhaps you should go to Specsavers!

What do you mean? That's a shallow pound on the Huddersfield Narrow.;)

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2 minutes ago, magictime said:

As WotEver suggests, it might be a useful first step in recognising the difference between a muddy ditch and a beautiful waterway. Then I'd just have to persuade you that the Llangollen, Macclesfield, Oxford etc. are not in the Midlands, and that there are more than 'a few' such canals in the country, and we might be some way towards you recognising that 'just' being able to cruise the narrow canals is actually a pretty good reason for a canal lover to choose a narrow beam boat.

Sorry, I know I'm taking this much too personally, but I just found that description of the nature, number and location(s) of the narrow canals so wide of the mark, I feel I need to defend them against such slanders! - and provide another perspective for people who might be trying to convince themselves that they're 'not missing much' in terms of cruising options by choosing a widebeam boat. I tend to do the same sort of thing when a debate about 'full length' vs. 'go anywhere' narrowboats crops up. I've done hundreds of miles of cruising in areas I couldn't have accessed in a boat with a less 'restricted' length or beam, and have hundreds more still to do.

What do you mean? That's a shallow pound on the Huddersfield Narrow.;)

As we keep saying if we ever decide we would like to try our hand at ditch crawling we will hire a tin slug.

Why restrict our cruising and accommodation for the off chance we might visit some muddy ditch in the Midlands?

It makes far more sense for us to have a boat suitable for the cruising that we actually do.  Not what we may or may not fancy doing in the future.

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I agree. I'd like to have loads of different types of boats for different things, if I had the free funds and free time-a seagoing tug to welly around offshore on for fun, a big fancy GRP yacht in warm tropical water full of fish... But at present, a NB is suitable for both my current location and usage.

I think the original question has to come with the context of use, both in terms of the waterways it is on and the owner's plans in terms of living (or not) aboard... simply making a standalone comparison of GRP to narrowboat without context is meaningless. And "narrowboat" does not automatically mean it is made of steel either of course...

There is no such thing as a general-purpose boat that is equally well suited to all lifestyles, conditions and waterways. Else we'd all have one...

 

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