Why a Narrow Boat or GRP

[Matt&Jo]

Ive just sold my category c quicksilver 540 cuddy cruiser and i would never ever put that in a lock.....you just cant scratch the gel coat on these boats as they just wick moisture into the fibre glass and then if in winter for example it freezes and cracks your hull.....end of boat......

[Calranthe]

1 minute ago, Matt&Jo said:

Ive just sold my category c quicksilver 540 cuddy cruiser and i would never ever put that in a lock.....you just cant scratch the gel coat on these boats as they just wick moisture into the fibre glass and then if in winter for example it freezes and cracks your hull.....end of boat......

Then all those thousands of GRP boats that cruise the canal's of the uk and have done so for 30+ years and still survive must be made of magic pixie dust, locks can be an issue to anyone the advice on here seems to be go in to a lock solo or after the NB.

I have personally seen GRP boats have "knocks" and bangs like a dodgem car and still be around years later.

[Dr Bob]

4 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

Well this brings up another point, there is thousands of GRP boats 10-40 years old which are canal and river boats, used on those waterways and still out there, not sunk, not destroyed by the smallest of knocks, just like NB if looked after they last a long time, my Kathleen is 36 years old and apart from the engine trouble there is no leaks boat is dry as a bone inside and no water staining or paint over, 15 years ago members of this very forum took that boat all over the canal's (she was called Michelle back then) and even though now she needs a little tlc, you show me a 36 year old NB that would not need the same.

...but all the GPR boats I am seeing are looking extremely tatty.

Our GPR sailing boat was bought by us new. We had here for 5 years. We lovingly protected her from all sorts of potential damage.

You just cant do that on the canals.

We loved our GRP boat on the sea. I firmly believe a GRP boat on the canals is a bad idea. The laminate may hold up over many years but not if you are going in an out of wide locks with steel boats. What are you going to say when you motor into your first lock on the GU and then you are followed in by a steel NB who clouts your back end. It happens all the time.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Calranthe said:

Beautiful. Does it have a model number

Sealine F33

[Phil Ambrose]

Any boat that is uncared for will look tatty regardless of the construction material.

We lived on a 40ft x 12ft GRP cruiser for 10 years, now living on a 60ft NB for the last 7 years, would have preferred to have kept the GRP. The only reason we swapped was the size of the locks.

Phil

[Calranthe]

I am not looking for a show boat, Kathleen is an old boat, good hull and we will have her painted and she will be given some TLC but the day I won't take out something I own because it could get scratched or damaged then I ask what is the point, you could take a GRP out on a lake, river, sea and hit debris.

Too many what if's, Kathleen has had 36 years out on canals giving many people enjoyment and experiences and with us too hopefully  

[Calranthe]

I think the biggest problem I see in this thread is from those that say "you can't do that" or "this one is the only way", both NB and GRP have strengths and weaknesses, I can stop kathleen and reverse within its own size, I can turn her 360 within her own space, I've seen NB try to handle a tight T junction its sometimes painful to watch, for a GRP the biggest problem I have is oversteer, I can go around a 120 degree corner without needing to excavate a field. She is a little too responsive which I will learn to handle, I do not think a NB has ever been described as too responsive.

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Calranthe

[Captain Pegg]

9 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

I am not looking for a show boat, Kathleen is an old boat, good hull and we will have her painted and she will be given some TLC but the day I won't take out something I own because it could get scratched or damaged then I ask what is the point, you could take a GRP out on a lake, river, sea and hit debris.

Too many what if's, Kathleen has had 36 years out on canals giving many people enjoyment and experiences and with us too hopefully  

 

3 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

I think the biggest problem I see in this thread is from those that say "you can't do that" or "this one is the only way", both NB and GRP have strengths and weaknesses, I can stop kathleen and reverse within its own size, I can turn her 360 within her own space, I've seen NB try to handle a tight T junction its sometimes painful to watch, for a GRP the biggest problem I have is oversteer, I can go around a 120 degree corner without needing to excavate a field.

 

Well that's good to know. So is there any chance you could quit worrying you've bought the wrong boat, get that engine fixed, go out and do donuts to your hearts content and leave us in peace to painfully struggle round junctions in our rusting steel boats?

JP

[Calranthe]

1 minute ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Well that's good to know. So is there any chance you could quit worrying you've bought the wrong boat, get that engine fixed, go out and do donuts to your hearts content and leave us in peace to painfully struggle round junctions in our rusting steel boats?

JP

You may want to reread the thread, see this thread was never about concerns like that this thread was about starting a lively discussion about the differences in NB and GRP and why people decide on one over the other, a lot of passion but sadly also  a few  very closed minded people but that is also okay you do not have to be on this thread, I have really enjoyed reading different peoples opinions, as for my boat we are hoping to go on our epic journey on wednesday.

NB are not right for us and never will be it just does not suit us but hopefully I have shown in this thread that I can accept and be fine that for other people its the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Momac]

We have some pretty big locks on the Trent some of which are made from quite abrasive concrete . And concrete /steel walls to moor up against. Thats what fenders are for.

A little scratch in the GRP gel coat isn't a major issue it it doesn't penetrate the gelcoat which is often a reasonable thickness . 

But I do agree steel and GRP boats don't necessarily mix well in the small locks on canals.

 

[Calranthe]

3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

We have some pretty big locks on the Trent some of which are made from quite abrasive concrete . And concrete /steel walls to moor up against. Thats what fenders are for.

A little scratch in the GRP gel coat isn't a major issue it it doesn't penetrate the gelcoat which is often a reasonable thickness . 

But I do agree steel and GRP boats don't necessarily mix well in the small locks on canals.

 

I have already learnt Fenders are my friend hehe, with Kathleen being a narrow cruiser I think we can even go in the smaller locks on the TMC without pulling up the fenders but I will be taking it VERY slowly and letting NB's go through first if they wish, we will be in no rush, set aside 7 days to get from Sawley to Aston, we will probably try visit a lot of the nice places on the way.

[Naughty Cal]

7 hours ago, Matt&Jo said:

Ive just sold my category c quicksilver 540 cuddy cruiser and i would never ever put that in a lock.....you just cant scratch the gel coat on these boats as they just wick moisture into the fibre glass and then if in winter for example it freezes and cracks your hull.....end of boat......

We have been through several hundred locks with our cruiser with no damage to the gel coat. 

If you do damage it which is unlikely if you know your boat and where to fender it up, then repair it.

7 hours ago, MartynG said:

We have some pretty big locks on the Trent some of which are made from quite abrasive concrete . And concrete /steel walls to moor up against. Thats what fenders are for.

A little scratch in the GRP gel coat isn't a major issue it it doesn't penetrate the gelcoat which is often a reasonable thickness . 

But I do agree steel and GRP boats don't necessarily mix well in the small locks on canals.

 

We have shared many locks with narrowboats and have not had problems with them.

The Witham locks and West Stockwith are just the right size for us to fit side by side with a narrowboat. 

If you don't keep tugging on the ropes the boats settle together with plenty of fenders . Trying to keep the boats apart as the lady in West Stockwith attempted just makes matters worse.

[Matt&Jo]

8 hours ago, Calranthe said:

Then all those thousands of GRP boats that cruise the canal's of the uk and have done so for 30+ years and still survive must be made of magic pixie dust, locks can be an issue to anyone the advice on here seems to be go in to a lock solo or after the NB.

I have personally seen GRP boats have "knocks" and bangs like a dodgem car and still be around years later.

Im not disagreeing with the fact its doable just that i would never do it....my wife and i miticulously cared for that boat hence the reason she looked top notch. Not an ounce of green algae anywhere, polished body, brand new evenride etec 90 on the back and very shiny chrome.

Perhaps my piloting skills etc but i just would not take her into that environment of abrasive concretes, metal corregate and steel boats all within a narrow confine.

Not my concern now as she is no longer mine but as we have a choice and can choose its going to be slimline widebeam for us as our home of choice.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Matt&Jo

[magictime]

8 hours ago, Calranthe said:

Well this brings up another point, there is thousands of GRP boats 10-40 years old which are canal and river boats, used on those waterways and still out there, not sunk, not destroyed by the smallest of knocks, just like NB if looked after they last a long time, my Kathleen is 36 years old and apart from the engine trouble there is no leaks boat is dry as a bone inside and no water staining or paint over, 15 years ago members of this very forum took that boat all over the canal's (she was called Michelle back then) and even though now she needs a little tlc, you show me a 36 year old NB that would not need the same.

Yeah, I'm sure it's only a small minority of GRP boats that ever suffer the sort of damage that leads to sinking, but still - they're clearly much more vulnerable than narrowboats, as Dr Bob explains and as is suggested by the number of them you see sitting on the bottom of the canal. And from a more personal perspective, I just think I'd be a bundle of nerves cruising around in one of them. Maybe it's just my rubbish steering, but bumps against lock walls, lock landings etc. are not exactly a rarity in my experience.

[Naughty Cal]

34 minutes ago, Matt&Jo said:

Im not disagreeing with the fact its doable just that i would never do it....my wife and i miticulously cared for that boat hence the reason she looked top notch. Not an ounce of green algae anywhere, polished body, brand new evenride etec 90 on the back and very shiny chrome.

Perhaps my piloting skills etc but i just would not take her into that environment of abrasive concretes, metal corregate and steel boats all within a narrow confine.

Not my concern now as she is no longer mine but as we have a choice and can choose its going to be slimline widebeam for us as our home of choice.

We look after ours and use her in locks. The two can go hand in hand.

3 minutes ago, magictime said:

Yeah, I'm sure it's only a small minority of GRP boats that ever suffer the sort of damage that leads to sinking, but still - they're clearly much more vulnerable than narrowboats, as Dr Bob explains and as is suggested by the number of them you see sitting on the bottom of the canal. And from a more personal perspective, I just think I'd be a bundle of nerves cruising around in one of them. Maybe it's just my rubbish steering, but bumps against lock walls, lock landings etc. are not exactly a rarity in my experience.

Perhaps you should go on a helmsmans course!

[Ray T]

55 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

We look after ours and use her in locks. The two can go hand in hand.

Perhaps you should go on a helmsmans course!

Last comment is good advice, coming from one, who in the past has, on several occassions, derided professional training courses. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Ray T

[Calranthe]

Lets try to keep this civil please, this is a discussion about something we are all passionate about boats

Yes we have a lot of different opinions, I have seen at least on the 12 mile we walked of the TMC for the last  year and the 6 Miles of travel on the canal we managed the following.

As many tatty looking NB as GRP,

As many sunken NB as GRP and by that I mean none.

I have seen the damage a NB can and does do to locks/bridges with an inexperienced pilot.

Lets be honest here if I hit something on the canal's unless its a kayak or person I am going to come worse off but that is only to a degree, at the speeds we travel and the flexibility of a good GRP hull the odd knock is not going to do much harm.

As a GRP pilot I will never enter a lock before a NB the physics are just too damn unfortunate.

Will any of that stop me enjoying Kathleen and going everywhere on canals ? in a boat that for 36 years has proven it can go on canals and more ? no  

I think of it like this to a lesser extent on a bike or as a cyclist you travel roads filled with huge fast boxes of metal traveling at speeds that could end you in a second you have little or no real protection only your situational awareness and ability to keep you safe,  going by the mentality of some in this thread a cyclist or Biker would never leave there home, take that to the nth degree and as a pedestrian you walk down a path less than 2 ft from cars going so fast if the hit you its game over, should we all stay in doors ?

I will be careful, I will be aware and hopefully I will learn.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

I think of it like this to a lesser extent on a bike or as a cyclist you travel roads filled with huge fast boxes of metal traveling at speeds that could end you in a second you have little or no real protection only your situational awareness and ability to keep you safe,  going by the mentality of some in this thread a cyclist or Biker would never leave there home, take that to the nth degree and as a pedestrian you walk down a path less than 2 ft from cars going so fast if the hit you its game over, should we all stay in doors ?

Good answer.

[Matt&Jo]

I guess harping back to the actual question i choose narrowboat (well widebeam) due to spacial perception.... even if sq ft space is similar between tubs and tubes. Take a 60ft x 10ft boat for eg..... it is long and fairly wide in boat terms.....when stood at the stern looking in u get that open plan feel giving that perception of space, on a grp you have different levels consisting of rooms so giving a perception of less space.

This move to the canals for us is about life style change but i would love to maintain space if possible and one thing we all can share and relate to is you only need open a side hatch and your space is infinate.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Matt&Jo said:

Take a 60ft x 10ft boat for eg..... it is long and fairly wide in boat terms.....when stood at the stern looking in u get that open plan feel giving that perception of space, on a grp you have different levels consisting of rooms so giving a perception of less space.

I completely follow your logic - but - disagree.

I have owned narrowboats, widebeam and 'super wide beams' in steel and GRP.

To me a NB is a certain length steel tube 6' x 6' and having it 'open plan' just makes it look like living in a corridor.

Having defined rooms with 'boundaries' (walls) seems to me to make the living area more defined, and actually, more spacious (in ether a steel or GRP boat)

Having 'rooms' in a NB may give a sense of 'small space' which is why I guess most are open plan except for the bedroom and bathrooms.

Any 'boat shaped' boat ( a 'normal' boat will have a L/B ratio of around 4) in any material will offer much greater space (and stability) and in my mind benefits from 'use definition & separation'

 

I guess it depends on our background, upbringing and housing which can cloud our perception of living space.

 

[Calranthe]

17 minutes ago, Matt&Jo said:

I guess harping back to the actual question i choose narrowboat (well widebeam) due to spacial perception.... even if sq ft space is similar between tubs and tubes. Take a 60ft x 10ft boat for eg..... it is long and fairly wide in boat terms.....when stood at the stern looking in u get that open plan feel giving that perception of space, on a grp you have different levels consisting of rooms so giving a perception of less space.

This move to the canals for us is about life style change but i would love to maintain space if possible and one thing we all can share and relate to is you only need open a side hatch and your space is infinate.

Makes sense and for you it fits

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Calranthe said:

Lets try to keep this civil please, this is a discussion about something we are all passionate about boats

Yes we have a lot of different opinions, I have seen at least on the 12 mile we walked of the TMC for the last  year and the 6 Miles of travel on the canal we managed the following.

As many tatty looking NB as GRP,

As many sunken NB as GRP and by that I mean none.

I have seen the damage a NB can and does do to locks/bridges with an inexperienced pilot.

Lets be honest here if I hit something on the canal's unless its a kayak or person I am going to come worse off but that is only to a degree, at the speeds we travel and the flexibility of a good GRP hull the odd knock is not going to do much harm.

As a GRP pilot I will never enter a lock before a NB the physics are just too damn unfortunate.

Will any of that stop me enjoying Kathleen and going everywhere on canals ? in a boat that for 36 years has proven it can go on canals and more ? no  

I think of it like this to a lesser extent on a bike or as a cyclist you travel roads filled with huge fast boxes of metal traveling at speeds that could end you in a second you have little or no real protection only your situational awareness and ability to keep you safe,  going by the mentality of some in this thread a cyclist or Biker would never leave there home, take that to the nth degree and as a pedestrian you walk down a path less than 2 ft from cars going so fast if the hit you its game over, should we all stay in doors ?

I will be careful, I will be aware and hopefully I will learn.

I think you may be getting a rather skewed picture from the replies in this thread. There are a number of folks saying NB's are the best for canals and a number of folks supporting GRP. It almost sounds like is pretty even. You need to look at reality. As I said before, we have just done the Warwick ring in a week (ie 130 locks - with a detour into Brum) and NOT ONE Grp boat passed us. NOT ONE. Yes you may be seeing them near rivers (where GRP is by far the best choice) but in a the muddy ditch areas - people are not using them - less than 1% on this route in the last week. Does that tell you something?

If you decide not to share locks with NB's then you will be slowing down the lock process and waste water which by the levels we have at the moment is important. Whilst you may be happy to wait till the NB in front completes the lock, what about the guy behind you, and the one behind him.

If you were doing 99%+ of you time on canals, IMHO you would be daft to buy a new or 'modern' grp cruiser. Most other people in this neck of the woods think the same (viz not passed one all week)

I'm out of here!

[Naughty Cal]

2 hours ago, Ray T said:

Last comment is good advice, coming from one, who in the past has, on several occassions, derided professional training courses. 

If you can't drive into a lock without hitting it then it is either training or quit boating as it just isn't for you!

The latter would always be the worst case so in this case I would suggest training even though I don't always agree with it.

32 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I think you may be getting a rather skewed picture from the replies in this thread. There are a number of folks saying NB's are the best for canals and a number of folks supporting GRP. It almost sounds like is pretty even. You need to look at reality. As I said before, we have just done the Warwick ring in a week (ie 130 locks - with a detour into Brum) and NOT ONE Grp boat passed us. NOT ONE. Yes you may be seeing them near rivers (where GRP is by far the best choice) but in a the muddy ditch areas - people are not using them - less than 1% on this route in the last week. Does that tell you something?

If you decide not to share locks with NB's then you will be slowing down the lock process and waste water which by the levels we have at the moment is important. Whilst you may be happy to wait till the NB in front completes the lock, what about the guy behind you, and the one behind him.

If you were doing 99%+ of you time on canals, IMHO you would be daft to buy a new or 'modern' grp cruiser. Most other people in this neck of the woods think the same (viz not passed one all week)

I'm out of here!

We have not passed a narrowboat all week either. So what?

[WotEver]

38 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

We have not passed a narrowboat all week either. So what?

So it proves the point (well, strongly suggests the point) that several of us have made repeatedly, including Dr Bob's post that you just quoted, which is that GRP boats are the best choice for rivers and coastal (they're boat shaped for a start) whereas narrowboats are better suited for the canals of central England. 

[Ray T]

As a matter of academic interest in the early days of leisure use of canals there were more little GRP / wooden cruisers, some ex life boats to be seen on the cut than steel narrow boats. I have always pondered why steel boats became the norm and the little cruisers waned. I have ideas but I am keeping my theories to myself on this occasion. Photo is Braunston Marina in its early days of rescue.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Ray T