Why a Narrow Boat or GRP

[WotEver]

59 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

I'm sure I've seen plenty of narrow GRP cruisers on the canals in Central England.

"Modern river/offshore" GRP cruisers? At 7ft wide?  Which make?

[Naughty Cal]

22 minutes ago, WotEver said:

"Modern river/offshore" GRP cruisers? At 7ft wide?  Which make?

No one mentioned modern!

[Captain Pegg]

3 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

No one mentioned modern!

Yes they did. Calranthe in his opening post. And narrow more than once but you missed that too.

What a stupid thread.

JP

Edited July 13, 2017 by Captain Pegg

[Graham Davis]

40 minutes ago, WotEver said:

"Modern river/offshore" GRP cruisers? At 7ft wide?  Which make?

Who mentioned modern? No-one as far as I can see.

And the OP stated narrow beam.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Graham Davis

[WotEver]

30 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

No one mentioned modern!

I suggest you re-read the OP. Or you could borrow my specs. 

11 hours ago, Calranthe said:

If I had the kind of money that can be spent on a narrow boat I would buy a modern river/canal/offshore GRP

 

[ditchcrawler]

31 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

No one mentioned modern!

 I would buy a modern river/canal/offshore GRP and there are versions of that kind of boat that are insulated have excellent storage and space, 4-6 

[WotEver]

15 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Who mentioned modern? No-one as far as I can see.

And the OP stated narrow beam.

Looks like you need to borrow my specs too. 

30 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Yes they did. Calranthe in his opening post. And narrow more than once but you missed that too.

What a stupid thread.

Sad, innit? Folk jumping in with their favourite bugbear without bothering to read the actual OP. 

[magictime]

36 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

So you limit your living space by a few muddy Midland ditches?

We look the other way.

We can go most places we wish. If we decide, no idea we would, to explore the muddy ditches of the Midlands, we would hire.

This leaving us the vast majority of the time with a far more suitable boat and far more living accommodation. 

Takes all sorts I suppose. What looks to you like a list of 'muddy Midland ditches' looks to me like a list of several of the most beautiful waterways I've cruised so far, plus several that are very much on my 'wish list', plus several that I know little about except that they offer access to other places I quite fancy visiting, like Stratford and, well, everywhere south of Stratford.

The Huddersfield Narrow, the Macclesfield, the Peak Forest, the Llangollen, the Shropshire Union, the Trent and Mersey, the Caldon, the Coventry, the Ashby, the Staffordshire and Worcestershire, the Stratford-upon-Avon, the BCN... yep, what an uninspiring bunch.

[Captain Pegg]

15 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Looks like you need to borrow my specs too. 

Sad, innit? Folk jumping in with their favourite bugbear without bothering to read the actual OP. 

I think you and Neil2 answered the OP long ago.

[W+T]

You ask why NB or GRP

 

GRP boats have more character, end of  

 

living on it or not GRP is the one  or a steel displacement boat.

[Ray T]

To me it is "horses for courses." 

I've sailed in many GRP and wooden cruising yachts and now in my dotage I have decided to "retire" to the cut in a steel narrow boat because I like them.

I have got the sea "out of my blood" and have no reason for wanting to take my narrow boat to places it was never designed for.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Ray T

[WotEver]

13 minutes ago, Ray T said:

I have got the sea "out of my blood" and have no reason for wanting to take my narrow boat to places it was never designed for.

I think that's more or less what I said in post #5. OP had said "If I had the kind of money that can be spent on a narrow boat I would buy a modern river/canal/offshore GRP" and I replied that if you want to travel the canals in the centre of England then you don't have much of a choice other than a narrowboat which is designed for those waters. If, on the other hand, you wish to do loads of rivers, estuaries etc then you'd be far better off with a boat designed for that purpose instead. 

Horses for courses. 

[Neil2]

12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I think that's more or less what I said in post #5. OP had said "If I had the kind of money that can be spent on a narrow boat I would buy a modern river/canal/offshore GRP" and I replied that if you want to travel the canals in the centre of England then you don't have much of a choice other than a narrowboat which is designed for those waters. If, on the other hand, you wish to do loads of rivers, estuaries etc then you'd be far better off with a boat designed for that purpose instead. 

Horses for courses. 

Having said that, don't know if anyone else has noticed but I Frances is for sale...

[Momac]

My 33ft GRP cruiser has two comfortable bedrooms each with double beds and room to stand and dress , a spacious saloon and cockpit - plenty of space. It is well suited to the River Trent where we are  based, and capable of travelling on the sea , which we have done. We spend up to two weeks aboard on holidays but could easily do more.

i have some years ago hired a 57ft narrowboat and would say the space is difficult to compare against a GRP cruiser . A different use of space probably more practical for living aboard in the UK. We see a lot of narrowboats on the R. Trent but most seem to be passing through - not so many that live locally.

I am not tempted from my GRP cruiser at present but have an interest in boats of all sorts.

 

[Calranthe]

28 minutes ago, MartynG said:

My 33ft GRP cruiser has two comfortable bedrooms each with double beds and room to stand and dress , a spacious saloon and cockpit - plenty of space. It is well suited to the River Trent where we are  based, and capable of travelling on the sea , which we have done. We spend up to two weeks aboard on holidays but could easily do more.

i have some years ago hired a 57ft narrowboat and would say the space is difficult to compare against a GRP cruiser . A different use of space probably more practical for living aboard in the UK. We see a lot of narrowboats on the R. Trent but most seem to be passing through - not so many that live locally.

I am not tempted from my GRP cruiser at present but have an interest in boats of all sorts.

 

What type of GRP is it  ?

I am very interesting in all the opinions in this thread and it is easy to see this is a passionate subject for some

 

[Naughty Cal]

18 hours ago, Calranthe said:

What type of GRP is it  ?

I am very interesting in all the opinions in this thread and it is easy to see this is a passionate subject for some

 

He has the bigger cousin of our S23.

You would love it:D

[Momac]

Not really sure how to post a picture - maybe there is one attached.

WA2.pdf

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by MartynG

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Not really sure how to post a picture - maybe there is one attached.

WA2.pdf

 

Very nice.

[Calranthe]

Beautiful. Does it have a model number

[Dr Bob]

On 13/07/2017 at 13:15, Calranthe said:

True but only conditional, from what I understand it a scratch on a GRP is just a scratch (except in the case of osmosis and only certain types of GRP are prone to it) a scratch to a NB that goes through the paintwork into the metal can cause issues and steel does not flex like GRP does, yes it can take a bigger knock but does it take those knocks without needing more repair work long term and time out of the water than a GRP.

 

 

NO, NO, NO.

A scratch on a GRP hull will cause a tear of the gel coat and therefore expose the glass fibre laminate underneath. Water will therefore have access to the glass mat and water will wick into the laminate causing damage. Scratches must be repaired. With Steel, at the next lift out, you can just monitor corrosion and get it welded. GRP is FAR, FAR less forgiving.

Trust me, I'm a Doctor (with 10 year developing GRP).

We lived aboard a 40ft Sailing Yacht  sailing it from Scotland to Greece over 3 years so know all about how GRP hulls work. We have recently bought a solid, steel, heavy, long, wont sink, narrowboat. We have just completed our first month aboard doing the GU, the Staford, the Birmingham and Fazely, the Coventry and Oxford canal, and there is NO WAY I would try and do this in a GRP boat. The locks, bridges, other narrowings, are just not wide enough to traverse without contact. Yes, you can get 100% contact free, but just one bump and you will need to check the hull for damage. Just one lock approached at the wrong angle would see an impact on the front that could cause load of micro-cracks which will weaken the hull.

On our recent trip round the Warwickshire ring, I did not see one grp boat going in the opposite direction. It would be very interesting to share a lock on the GU with a plastic boat. If I had a GRP boat I would never go in a lock with a steel narrow boat.

I am not sure where your comment on osmosis comes from. All GRP will suffer from it to greater or lesser degrees. It is caused initially by poor lay up techniques introducing air voids in the laminate, which water is then driven into by osmotic pressure. The speed it will be driven into will be a function of the water transmission through the gell coat or laminate. Some gel coats are worse than others (I spent 4 years developing gel coats for one the UK's polyester manufactures many years ago). Osmosis is not something you should worry about as it is unlikely to sink a boat made over 10 years ago when the laminate thickness was usually good. Far worse is the effect of a cracked gel coat which then allows water directly into the laminate. Water will wick up the glass fibres and reduce the strength of the fibre to resin bond weakening the structure. This is not osmosis. To be honest, most grp hulls were so overenginered that they will never sink anyway - just look at the much reduced thickness's now.....but would you like to be in a lock with me.

No, GRP hulls for oceans and rivers......Steel narrowboats for the canals.

[Calranthe]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

NO, NO, NO.

A scratch on a GRP hull will cause a tear of the gel coat and therefore expose the glass fibre laminate underneath. Water will therefore have access to the glass mat and water will wick into the laminate causing damage. Scratches must be repaired. With Steel, at the next lift out, you can just monitor corrosion and get it welded. GRP is FAR, FAR less forgiving.

Trust me, I'm a Doctor (with 10 year developing GRP).

We lived aboard a 40ft Sailing Yacht  sailing it from Scotland to Greece over 3 years so know all about how GRP hulls work. We have recently bought a solid, steel, heavy, long, wont sink, narrowboat. We have just completed our first month aboard doing the GU, the Staford, the Birmingham and Fazely, the Coventry and Oxford canal, and there is NO WAY I would try and do this in a GRP boat. The locks, bridges, other narrowings, are just not wide enough to traverse without contact. Yes, you can get 100% contact free, but just one bump and you will need to check the hull for damage. Just one lock approached at the wrong angle would see an impact on the front that could cause load of micro-cracks which will weaken the hull.

On our recent trip round the Warwickshire ring, I did not see one grp boat going in the opposite direction. It would be very interesting to share a lock on the GU with a plastic boat. If I had a GRP boat I would never go in a lock with a steel narrow boat.

I am not sure where your comment on osmosis comes from. All GRP will suffer from it to greater or lesser degrees. It is caused initially by poor lay up techniques introducing air voids in the laminate, which water is then driven into by osmotic pressure. The speed it will be driven into will be a function of the water transmission through the gell coat or laminate. Some gel coats are worse than others (I spent 4 years developing gel coats for one the UK's polyester manufactures many years ago). Osmosis is not something you should worry about as it is unlikely to sink a boat made over 10 years ago when the laminate thickness was usually good. Far worse is the effect of a cracked gel coat which then allows water directly into the laminate. Water will wick up the glass fibres and reduce the strength of the fibre to resin bond weakening the structure. This is not osmosis. To be honest, most grp hulls were so overenginered that they will never sink anyway - just look at the much reduced thickness's now.....but would you like to be in a lock with me.

No, GRP hulls for oceans and rivers......Steel narrowboats for the canals.

I have to disagree with you even though I respect and agree with some of what you say.

Point one and please let me know if I am wrong I think we are on the same page on this although I am coming from a far less experienced side, higher density GRP as in the older boats 60-79+ were made with a lot thicker/denser GRP because back then they had no idea how little they could use and thus those older boats are more resistant to Osmotic blistering ?

Point two, on the short time I have been on the TMC and all those times we went on the tow path we saw equal numbers of NB and GRP boats.

[magictime]

8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

We have just completed our first month aboard doing the GU, the Staford, the Birmingham and Fazely, the Coventry and Oxford canal, and there is NO WAY I would try and do this in a GRP boat. The locks, bridges, other narrowings, are just not wide enough to traverse without contact. Yes, you can get 100% contact free, but just one bump and you will need to check the hull for damage. Just one lock approached at the wrong angle would see an impact on the front that could cause load of micro-cracks which will weaken the hull.

Well, that would certainly explain all those sunken boats dotted liberally around the network. Not for me, thanks!

[Dr Bob]

On 13/07/2017 at 23:16, Calranthe said:

What type of GRP is it  ?

 

 

What are you asking?

GRP stands for glass reinforced plastic.

That is a composite made from a fibre (ie, glass or nylon (ie kevlar) or carbon fibre) bound together with a thermoset matrix, (ie unsaturated polyester, vinyl ester or epoxy etc)

From your other post, you seem to suggest one sort is better for osmosis. Epoxy/ Carbon is by far the best with glass/polyester the worst ....but almost all GRP boats are made with glass/polyester.

You then have to think about how it is made, ie glass to resin ratio,  type of glass (chopped strand mat, spray roving, or woven roving) lay up method ( vacuum, resin injection, hand lay up etc).

Your average buyer will not have a clue about the above. All the above will have an effect on lifetime - and osmosis which you referred to earlier.

[Dr Bob]

17 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

I have to disagree with you even though I respect and agree with some of what you say.

Point one and please let me know if I am wrong I think we are on the same page on this although I am coming from a far less experienced side, higher density GRP as in the older boats 60-79+ were made with a lot thicker/denser GRP because back then they had no idea how little they could use and thus those older boats are more resistant to Osmotic blistering ?

 

Point 1. Yes, you are right that older boats were made with much thicker laminates - not denser. No that has no difference to osmotic blistering. Blistering is caused by air pockets in the laminate. Water migrates to these pockets by osmosis. It is mainly the gel coat which will stop this ingress so the gel coat is key in looking at osmosis. The older method of hand lay up of the laminate caused a lot of the air voids hence a lot of evidence of osmosis on boat made in the 70's and 80's. Thickness of laminate has zero effect on the progress of osmossis

When the manufactures swiched to vacuum infusion or resin injection, the air voids were less and the glass was better wet out and hence osmosis is less. I would forget osmosiss. It is not a problem. It never sank anythink. I would be far more worried about a big gash in the front of my boat, or a load of very fine cracks caused in the gel coat caused by a 'casual' bump against the lock entrance - as that will let water into the laminate ....and that is not osmosis.

Point 2. Fine, see you on the GU in a few weeks in one of the wide locks. I wouldnt like to be crushed in there with a 20te steel boat next to me - dont forget, I dont have fenders out. Rivers yes, canals no.

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Dr Bob
word missed out

[Calranthe]

5 minutes ago, magictime said:

Well, that would certainly explain all those sunken boats dotted liberally around the network. Not for me, thanks!

Well this brings up another point, there is thousands of GRP boats 10-40 years old which are canal and river boats, used on those waterways and still out there, not sunk, not destroyed by the smallest of knocks, just like NB if looked after they last a long time, my Kathleen is 36 years old and apart from the engine trouble there is no leaks boat is dry as a bone inside and no water staining or paint over, 15 years ago members of this very forum took that boat all over the canal's (she was called Michelle back then) and even though now she needs a little tlc, you show me a 36 year old NB that would not need the same.