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simple (??) inverter question


wobbly ollie

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I'm inclined to suspect the previous owner kept the batts on permanent charge. But the OP on taking over the boat unplugged the shoreline and it has taken until now for the previously good batteries to became fully discharged.

I note the OP has ignored my question about what charging regime he follows, too. 

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OP also says he has a fridge, but doesn't (I think) say if compressor or absorption, or whether powered from 12v or 230v through inverter.

They now say only two leisure batteries.

By most fag packet calculations I have done even a compressor fridge may well be more than half their total electricity demands, particularly if turned up to accommodate a very hot spell.

2 batteries doesn't give a lot of lee-way to avoid excessively discharging them, unless engine running is frequent.

Of course if it were an absorption fridge running on electric, they will probably kill batteries, even if they added more...............

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I had all the electrics sorted at great expense when we bought the boat. Its got a very efficient  in board charging system together with a digital battery scrolling readout thingy (must read the manual) and we are hooked up to shore power. I do understand the importance of correct 'charging regime' however  the marine electrician did point that the batteties looked like they might need replacing in the near future but were holding reasonable charge at the time he tested them . Its all been very helpful  so thanks again. I have learnt that there is a difference  bewtween liesure batteries and car batteries so will purchase accordingly. Cheers!

G

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24 minutes ago, wobbly ollie said:

digital battery scrolling readout thingy (must read the manual) and we are hooked up to shore power

Life on a hook-up is easy - you just need to understand where your electrickery comes from and goes to when you are off the umbilical.

Have you actually conducted a 'power audit' ?

 

I can already see the thread resulting next time you leave the marina "Help my batteries have gone flat again"

It doesn't help 'having all the gear but no idea' on what it does (or means)

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, wobbly ollie said:

I had all the electrics sorted at great expense when we bought the boat. Its got a very efficient  in board charging system together with a digital battery scrolling readout thingy (must read the manual) and we are hooked up to shore power. I do understand the importance of correct 'charging regime' however  the marine electrician did point that the batteties looked like they might need replacing in the near future but were holding reasonable charge at the time he tested them . Its all been very helpful  so thanks again. I have learnt that there is a difference  bewtween liesure batteries and car batteries so will purchase accordingly. Cheers!

G

Look, I am sorry if this comes over as harsh or rude but you have NOT answered questions that are very important and the post above is naive to say the least. You may have paid a lot of money but:-

1. With just two batteries plus an electric fridge & 1000 watt inverter of whatever types is marginal when off the shoreline so to say the electrics were sorted is not likely to be true if you ever leave the shoreline or it trips out for as period.

2. The efficiency of battery charging is down to the batteries - they control the current that they will accept, not the charging device although the charging device can help to some smaller degree by messing with the charging voltage. The design, age, and temperature of the batteries also dictate how much of the charge is converted to stored chemical energy, the charger has nothing to do with it. I think your "very efficient inboard charging system" is more likely to be a figment of a marketing persons imagination than fact.

3. "Digital battery scrolling readout thingy" with no further identification makes me fear its an amp hour counter and it is accepted that these in their basic configuration are more likely to encourage the demise of batteries than prolong their life. Please identify this bit of kit or post a photo. We may be able to save you the cost of even more new batteries in a month or three.

If what you say about "understanding the charging regime" is true and you put it into practice then for optimum life you do not need leisure batteries but deep cycle ones - loads of discussion about this on here. However in view of the above I suspect at present your best buy will be leisure batteries that are cheaper to ruin than proper deep cycle ones.

I would be very interested to hear the readings you take and your interpretation of them each day when you assess the state of your batteries.

 

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On 10/07/2017 at 15:17, wobbly ollie said:

I had all the electrics sorted at great expense when we bought the boat.

 

Given you say you have a 1000W inverter and only two leisure batteries, I'd suggest what actually happened was you paid a lot of money to someone who doesn't actually understand marine electrical systems at best, or you've been had over by a charlatan masquerading as an electrician at worst, and you are now reaping the results of this transaction. 

 

Unless perhaps s/he advised you to have more batteries and you rejected the advice.

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2 hours ago, wobbly ollie said:

I had all the electrics sorted at great expense when we bought the boat. Its got a very efficient  in board charging system together with a digital battery scrolling readout thingy (must read the manual) and we are hooked up to shore power. I do understand the importance of correct 'charging regime' however  the marine electrician did point that the batteties looked like they might need replacing in the near future but were holding reasonable charge at the time he tested them . Its all been very helpful  so thanks again. I have learnt that there is a difference  bewtween liesure batteries and car batteries so will purchase accordingly. Cheers!

G

In what way is it efficient?  If you mean it can charge your batteries from say 50% discharged to fully recharged in a couple of hours, then I am afraid you are mistaken as it's just not possible to do that with lead acid batteries.  If by efficient you mean that (for example) 95% of the power into the charger is put into the batteries, then that will save you pennies per day.  Another question, when you use 240V equipment when connected to shore power is it powered directly by the shore supply, or does the shore supply only power a charger, and the 240V is supplied by the inverter?

If the batteries are old, then they will need changing sooner or later and you may have done nothing wrong, but if they were old but effective, then lack of charging will have finished them off.  New batteries if 'abused' will not last more than a few months - give or take.

Sorry if all this sounds a bit confrontational, it isn't intended to be, but there are a few people that have destroyed new batteries distressingly quickly and they are keen to share their know-how so others don't have to.  So if you want to engage in a battery charging chat on here, I'm sure you will get as much advice as you want...........

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Look guys i really appreciate all the well meaning advice and based on this together with the original comments from the guy who i used originally  (who happens  to a well respected n/b specialist) i have decided to replace the batteries. I am confident that the modern maintainance free charging set up he installed will do its job and the battery moniter will also be useful once i've had time to read the manual! However for now my question is answered so thank you.

In the meantime i am aware of several things ...firstly that theres an awful lot of knowledgeable folk on this forum andcthe advice can used to whatever levels matches that persons capabilities. For me personally its all about having a basic knowledge. Eg. I know that 3 batteries my be better than 2 (although its never shown to be a problem). I know that my fridge is 12v compressor etc However I dont want to and more importantly dont have the time,  to worry about "Power audits" or "battery charging regimes"  I'd much rather enjoy the occasional weekend cruise, potter down at the marina doing the various DIY jobs that I'm  capable of and anything that needs specialist knowledge . ... pay someone to do it.

So as i say thanks for helping with the original question....and sorry if i couldnt furnish you with all of the information  requested to take it to the next level. Cheers folks.

 

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We'll all probably still be here when OP returns in a few months asking why his new batteries are dead. But that's okay, he doesn't have the time to learn and it's much easier just to replace the batteries when they go flat. 

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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I can already see the thread resulting next time you leave the marina "Help my batteries have gone flat again"

It doesn't help 'having all the gear but no idea' on what it does (or means)

 

4 minutes ago, WotEver said:

We'll all probably still be here when OP returns in a few months asking why his new batteries are dead. But that's okay, he doesn't have the time to learn and it's much easier just to replace the batteries when they go flat. 

 

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Choosing to ignore your batteries and just replace them every six or twelve months is a perfectly valid strategy.

Just be aware this is the route you are choosing by default.

 

On 10/07/2017 at 20:24, wobbly ollie said:

 I am confident that the modern maintainance free charging set up he installed will do its job 

 

Several of us here are equally confident it won't, from the sketchy details you have given so far. 

 

Edit to delete some extraneous worms.

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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At the moment he 'probably' will be ok as most of the time it will be on shore power in the marina and then ".........enjoy the occasional weekend cruise...." so when out on the canal he will probably have a fair amount of engine running which will charge the batteries so long as he doesn't use lots of power in the evenings.   Time will tell.

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Well you could well be right, but given it was all installed recently by a well respected NB specialist then failed the first time it was used for a weekend trip, I don't think the dice are loaded in Mr Olly's favour.

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Come on peoples dont back bite the guy for not having or wanting to have your level of knowledge. You are all very knowledgeable persons accross a variety of areas but through experience gained and time and research. This guy just started out and wants to fit new batts and have a bash so let him and if his batterys die they die. Its his wonga he is throwing down the drain.

Granted however he has asked for advice and took the info from his first post he needed but neglected to take on board further the additional info you have all put forward. 

Perhaps for him small steps and multiple battery banks and he too will be on here pleading for the next new guy to take this advice but let him learn and as you say he may well be fine and have 5-7 happy years with his new batterys.

Best of luck to you sir.

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33 minutes ago, Matt&Jo said:

Come on peoples dont back bite the guy for not having or wanting to have your level of knowledge. You are all very knowledgeable persons accross a variety of areas but through experience gained and time and research. This guy just started out and wants to fit new batts and have a bash so let him and if his batterys die they die. Its his wonga he is throwing down the drain.

Granted however he has asked for advice and took the info from his first post he needed but neglected to take on board further the additional info you have all put forward. 

Perhaps for him small steps and multiple battery banks and he too will be on here pleading for the next new guy to take this advice but let him learn and as you say he may well be fine and have 5-7 happy years with his new batterys.

Best of luck to you sir.

or just as easily if he goes cruising for a while 5 to 7 weeks.

I don't think anyone is biting him for a lack of knowledge, some are biting him because years of experience tells us that he has probably been had over his electrics and he probably needs to put a bit of effort in for himself if he wants a long term solution. You are probably correct that if he stays in the marina on a shoreline all will be well for some time.

I suppose that if, or should I say when, he comes back with battery problems you think we should run through all this again. If he could have been bothered to go back through a few sub forums he would not have needed to ask in the first place but its easier to just ask and then tell those who are trying to help to basically go take a jump because he can not be bothered to do a bit of work that will pay dividends time and time over in the future.

I think he has displayed arrogance and a degree of contempt for those who have tried to help him and he continues to do so. I just hope that when he has his next problem of whatever sort we remember his last post and act accordingly. But I doubt we will.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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I have had a few spats on here with people because i did not know how people are on here. Now i dont say that in a negative term i assure you but sometimes those who are very knowledgeable can have short sharp views probably because they repeat day in day out when like i did ask a question done to death and untill you become accustom to it you can take umbridge. I guess i felt that because i didnt know and asked before researching i was treated as if i was stupid or was an annoyance. I have accepted this as part of this forum and wont let it affect me in the future. All i say this for is if i and others can remember this perhaps u can also remember i as have many are just starting out in this adventure and will ask dumb things and not heed advice from those we truly should listen to.

Mistakes are lessons learnt and not listening is another one of those lessons we will learn along with lock cock ups and mooring catastrophes.

Edited by Matt&Jo
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The logic from that is that we are best advised not to bother to try to advise and answer questions that appear dumb because they questioner will not take any advice offered.

I don't think I have seen a single occasion when a question was not first answered reasonably, even if it had been asked thousands of times before. What does happen is that when the questioner seem to be trying to ignore the advice or say its wrong things get a bit blunt.

In this case I think the OP got very good advice that was confirmed by several contributors. The he decided to tell those who tried to help him  where to get off and imply that his expensive equipment was fine and by implication we were  wrong. He also as good as said "thanks for the advice but I cant be bothered to take it or put any effort in myself."  That's the bit I take exception to, on a forum or face to face it just plain rude.

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Is this the boat?

clicky

If so, I'd question how long it was on brokerage, as it may not have been on the landline for a long time and so the batteries would self-discharge and become sulphated and therefore knackered. Don't ask me how I know this!

It does have twin alternators, so there's potential for a decent charge rate when running the engine.

 

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On 11/07/2017 at 09:26, Tony Brooks said:

The logic from that is that we are best advised not to bother to try to advise and answer questions that appear dumb because they questioner will not take any advice offered.

I don't think I have seen a single occasion when a question was not first answered reasonably, even if it had been asked thousands of times before. What does happen is that when the questioner seem to be trying to ignore the advice or say its wrong things get a bit blunt.

In this case I think the OP got very good advice that was confirmed by several contributors. The he decided to tell those who tried to help him  where to get off and imply that his expensive equipment was fine and by implication we were  wrong. He also as good as said "thanks for the advice but I cant be bothered to take it or put any effort in myself."  That's the bit I take exception to, on a forum or face to face it just plain rude.

 

Interesting you should say that Tony, because I don't think this is the first time the OP has started a thread on here which has gone the same way. I've been a bit abrupt in this thread because I already have him noted as someone who asks questions then ignores advice/requests for further info. I'll have a look back through some previous threads later and make sure I'm not unfairly confusing him with someone else. 

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3 hours ago, PaulG said:

Is this the boat?

clicky

If so, I'd question how long it was on brokerage, as it may not have been on the landline for a long time and so the batteries would self-discharge and become sulphated and therefore knackered. Don't ask me how I know this!

It does have twin alternators, so there's potential for a decent charge rate when running the engine.

 

Does seem likely. Never heard of a Nikkai inverter.

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