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boat, moorings, so much to learn


ronnietucker

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Hi folks!

I'm thinking about getting a boat. I'm thinking a cruiser of some kind, but my budget is kinda limited. Maybe £4k? It'd be used at weekends and when on holiday from work, so it wouldn't be a 24/7 floating house.

For mooring, it'd be perfect if it was on the Forth & Clyde canal as I work near Glasgow city centre. I've seen estimates from £200-300 per month. Does that sound about right to you guys? Again, in the ideal world, I'd like cheap moorings. Even just with basic (water/shower/sewage) services.

Regarding the mooring: can you rent out your boat to friends and family? Is that legit? Not as a business, just to help pay the monthly fees for it.

Can cruisers remain in the water all year round? Winter weather wouldn't do it any harm would it?

I've been reading about regarding insurance and certifications, but those were some things I really wasn't sure about.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give a potential new (if somewhat small) boater.

 

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47 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

Even just with basic (water/shower/sewage) services.

This is not basic, basic is muddy strip of land that you bang your own mooring pins into and that you have to move the boat from to get everything else. What you are describing is a well serviced mooring-the showers part in particular. I am not at all familiar with Scottish canals in terms of mooring prices so your figures may be on point, but on the English waterways moorings for a sub-30ft boat are generally a lot less than that (London aside).

Regarding the mooring: can you rent out your boat to friends and family? Is that legit? Not as a business, just to help pay the monthly fees for it.

Not for money legally, not without a whole different licence that is both costly and requires a significant amount of compliance work on the boat in question.

Can cruisers remain in the water all year round? Winter weather wouldn't do it any harm would it?

I am by no means the expert here but I think that while traditionally a lot of folk take GRP boats out onto the hard in winter, that is a matter of choice rather than essential to the integrity of the boat.

 

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Unless mooring costs are very much higher in Scotland, I'd expect to pay more like £70-£100 a month to moor a small (25-30ft?) narrow beam cruiser. At the top end of your estimate, £3600 a year, you're getting into fully-residential-mooring-for-a-60ft-boat territory!

As Starcoaster says, you can't legally hire your boat out for money without a whole different licence, safety certficate etc. - at least I assume this all applies in Scotland too? - but whether this would be a problem if it really was just friends and family making a 'contribution' to fuel/maintenance costs...

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Thanks for the advice guys.

For mooring I was initially looking at the canal which runs through where I live, and where I work. It's giving guides of about £2k-£3k/yr:  http://www.livingonwater.co.uk/index.php/content/show/availability/current-availability - if I could find somewhere which was £70-100 it'd be ideal!

Yes, I was thinking the same about the 'renting'. As in, the people would really be paying *ahem* 'donations'. Or something to that effect. :)

Anyone else able to shed light on a cruiser in winter time?

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13 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

Anyone else able to shed light on a cruiser in winter time?

Most elderly GRP cruisers (the ones that would possibly fall within your budget) are not ideal for winter usage - OK for 'day trips', but not ideal as overnighting / liveaboards.

They tend to be 'single-skin' and have no insulation, you would need to strip out any linings, cupboards etc and install insulation - our GRP cruiser has been retro-fitted with 'large sized' foil bubble reflective stuff (like bubble wrap but made from foil) which has been glued onto the fibreglass, then lining panels have been produced (eg : carpet or vinyl covered ply wood) and mounted into place giving you an insulated sandwich (GRP - Bubble Foil - panel) It works really well.

Secondly - GRP cruisers 'of a certain age' are unlikely to have any form of heating fitted. You will need some form of heating - you will get a big heat loss thru' the large windows.

Normal heating methods on a GRP boat is a diesel fired 'blown hot-air' system (two main manufacturers - Eberspacher, and Webasto) Cost of a small 3-4 KW system will be around £1000 + fitting cost (around £500+ for boatyard labour costs)

Some GRP (VERY FEW) have managed to fit in a solid-fuel (coal / wood) burning stove but it is not easy to find space in such a small boat.

It may not be what you want to hear - but you would be better 'saving up' a bit longer and when you get to around £8k you will get a much, much younger & better equipped GRP boat.

 

BOAT is an acronym for Bring Out Another Thousand (pounds) and (generally) the older and cheaper the boat is the more often you have to 'bring out the extra thousand'.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Most elderly GRP cruisers (the ones that would possibly fall within your budget) are not ideal for winter usage - OK for 'day trips', but not ideal as overnighting / liveaboards.

They tend to be 'single-skin' and have no insulation, you would need to strip out any linings, cupboards etc and install insulation - our GRP cruiser has been retro-fitted with 'large sized' foil bubble reflective stuff (like bubble wrap but made from foil) which has been glued onto the fibreglass, then lining panels have been produced (eg : carpet or vinyl covered ply wood) and mounted into place giving you an insulated sandwich (GRP - Bubble Foil - panel) It works really well.

Secondly - GRP cruisers 'of a certain age' are unlikely to have any form of heating fitted. You will need some form of heating - you will get a big heat loss thru' the large windows.

Normal heating methods on a GRP boat is a diesel fired 'blown hot-air' system (two main manufacturers - Eberspacher, and Webasto) Cost of a small 3-4 KW system will be around £1000 + fitting cost (around £500+ for boatyard labour costs)

Some GRP (VERY FEW) have managed to fit in a solid-fuel (coal / wood) burning stove but it is not easy to find space in such a small boat.

It may not be what you want to hear - but you would be better 'saving up' a bit longer and when you get to around £8k you will get a much, much younger & better equipped GRP boat.

 

BOAT is an acronym for Bring Out Another Thousand (pounds) and (generally) the older and cheaper the boat is the more often you have to 'bring out the extra thousand'.

You're right, it's not what I wanted to hear, but I appreciate your honesty on it as it does give me more knowledge on this.

I did wonder about heating. Is it feasible to use a Calor gas heater in a cruiser?

My budget could be extended to about £5k still leaving me the £1k to bring out (B.O.A.T. :)  )

I'm not sure how often I would use it (overnight) in the winter, but is leaving it in the water over winter OK? 

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4 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

Do not use a calor gas heater inside the boat, carbon monoxide build up is huge and can kill you without you knowing anything about it, until in the morning when you wake up dead.

Well, that sounds rather unpleasant. Thanks for the advice.

Would it be possible to fit a small wood burning stove?

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I was in a similar position to you a few weeks back, I purchased a GRP cruiser for not much more than your budget with ,hot water ,shower(one I can't fit in) and warm air heating so they are out there if you are prepared to search

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6 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

Would it be possible to fit a small wood burning stove?

Depending on boat size, layout and construction - possible - Yes.

Easy - No

Cheap - No

This is the small (8" firebox) stove that we fitted in one boat.

Fire, Flue components, fitting came to around £800. The fire was 'cheap' the installation bits were expensive.

 

 

IMG_20130912_123236.jpg

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18 minutes ago, jocave said:

I was in a similar position to you a few weeks back, I purchased a GRP cruiser for not much more than your budget with ,hot water ,shower(one I can't fit in) and warm air heating so they are out there if you are prepared to search

That sounds absolutely perfect! That would be a dream come true. I assume it has a toilet too? :D

I initially have a £4k budget, but would stretch it to £5k if something like that came up.

Good luck with it, and I hope you enjoy it! I'm envious. :D

 

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1 minute ago, ronnietucker said:

I initially have a £4k budget, but would stretch it to £5k if something like that came up.

I know I keep being the bearer of 'doom & gloom' but I really am trying to be helpful.

You will stand a far, far better chance of finding a boat in 'England' than you will in Scotland - remember that as Scotland is not connected to England (by waterways) you will have to pay for a truck to bring it up North for you - also (probably) a crane / hoist onto the truck and similar to lift off the truck.

Maybe £1000 - could be more if it is on a truck and the driver is on a Tacho' and on limited driving hours and the trip runs into 'days'.

Depending on the size you end up with there are boat movers who COULD (possibly) move you by 4x4 and trailer saving the cost of two-cranes / hoists.

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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know I keep being the bearer of 'doom & gloom' but I really am trying to be helpful.

You will stand a far, far better chance of finding a boat in 'England' than you will in Scotland - remember that as Scotland is not connected to England (by waterways) you will have to pay for a truck to bring it up North for you - also (probably) a crane / hoist onto the truck and similar to lift off the truck.

Maybe £1000 - could be more if it is on a truck and the driver is on a Tacho' and on limited driving hours and the trip runs into 'days'.

Depending on the size you end up with there are boat movers who COULD (possibly) move you by 4x4 and trailer saving the cost of two-cranes / hoists.

It IS helpful. I'd rather know all these things, pitfalls and all, before I look for a mooring (which is my main stumbling point at the moment).

But, yeah, ideally I'd like the boat to be up here somewhere as I really don't have an extra £1k for moving it by land. :(

The extra £1k I have I'd like to keep in case something needs to be fixed/replaced/repaired/other.

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You mention mooring in Glasgow and this is something which is not generally recommended due to vandalism 

There are a few moorings outside the Scottish Canals office in Applecross Street and some in speirs wharf 

You need to speak to Scottish canals about the availability of moorings and the cost. Mooring is not cheap up here 

There are moorings at auchenstarry where there are grp boats. I think they're left in the water over winter but obviously not used if the canal is frozen 

Haggis 

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18 minutes ago, haggis said:

You mention mooring in Glasgow and this is something which is not generally recommended due to vandalism 

There are a few moorings outside the Scottish Canals office in Applecross Street and some in speirs wharf 

You need to speak to Scottish canals about the availability of moorings and the cost. Mooring is not cheap up here 

There are moorings at auchenstarry where there are grp boats. I think they're left in the water over winter but obviously not used if the canal is frozen 

Haggis 

Vandalism? In Glasgow?! How dare you!   ;):D

I think the moorings are so expensive in Glasgow as it's basically danger money to keep your boat safe. :D

I don't mind travelling a bit to get to a mooring as I live not that far from a train station. Getting from said mooring to work would be another problem. :D

 

Thanks for all the help guys. I really appreciate it.

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23 minutes ago, jocave said:

Would something like that be suitable, they can deliver it to wherever you want, Jon is a bit of an odd guy to deal with though..

http://www.wayfordmarineservices.co.uk/product/norman-23-mkll/

Far from ideal for two reasons :

Firstly it is petrol powered outboard. Petrol is not easily come by on the canal system without walking every day and finding a 'handy' petrol station. You are limited by law as to how much you can carry on board (30 litres from memory) and the safety requirements for the BSS (boat version of the MOT) are much more stringent than for diesel engine boats.

Secondly, an outboard has a very small electrical output and is unable to keep a 'domestic' battery charged up as well as the starter battery. If you plan on having any electrical conveniences (TV, Phone chargers, Computer, fridge etc etc) then you will need to get a generator (more petrol !!!!) and run it every day.

 

Unfortunately many 'newbies' make the same mistake - its cheap and don't investigate why. Within a matter of days they are on here asking how to avoid flat batteries - why are the lights going dim, etc.

 

You are doing the correct thing and asking why, how and what.

 

Look for a diesel inboard boat.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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24 minutes ago, jocave said:

Would something like that be suitable, they can deliver it to wherever you want, Jon is a bit of an odd guy to deal with though..

http://www.wayfordmarineservices.co.uk/product/norman-23-mkll/

1

I'd like to see inside it too, but that looks pretty good.

I doubt, though, that the £4k (in this case) would include delivery. Would it? Really? Would be nice if it was. :D

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Far from ideal for two reasons :

Firstly it is petrol powered outboard. Petrol is not easily come by on the canal system without walking every day and finding a 'handy' petrol station. You are limited by law as to how much you can carry on board (30 litres from memory) and the safety requirements for the BSS (boat version of the MOT) are much more stringent than for diesel engine boats.

Secondly, an outboard has a very small electrical output and is unable to keep a 'domestic' battery charged up as well as the starter battery. If you plan on having any electrical conveniences (TV, Phone chargers, Computer, fridge etc etc) then you will need to get a generator (more petrol !!!!) and run it every day.

 

Look for a diesel inboard boat.

See? You're not all bad news!   :D

Definitely things I'll keep in mind.

Edited by ronnietucker
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12 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

Vandalism? In Glasgow?! How dare you!   ;):D

I think the moorings are so expensive in Glasgow as it's basically danger money to keep your boat safe. :D

I don't mind travelling a bit to get to a mooring as I live not that far from a train station. Getting from said mooring to work would be another problem. :D

 

Thanks for all the help guys. I really appreciate it.

Croy railway station is a few minutes walk from auchenstarry 

Haggis 

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2 hours ago, ronnietucker said:

For mooring I was initially looking at the canal which runs through where I live, and where I work. It's giving guides of about £2k-£3k/yr:  http://www.livingonwater.co.uk/index.php/content/show/availability/current-availability

I think those are prices for residential moorings - the few I clicked on seemed to be residential, anyway, and the focus of that site seems to be the residential side (hence 'Living on Water').

See if this page gets you anywhere - there's a link for leisure moorings, although no prices that I can see:

https://www.scottishcanals.co.uk/activities/boating/long-term-licences-moorings/

Re the cost of moving a boat: as Alan suggested above, a smaller, trailable boat might not be so expensive to move, especially if slipways are available to get it in and out of the water without using a crane.

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1 minute ago, Murflynn said:

pity OP hasn't made a search of this most informative of fora before asking elementary questions.  just saying ...........  

 

I also wonder if they have checked out the boats for sale section here. Two possible candidates currently for sale.

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Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I also wonder if they have checked out the boats for sale section here. Two possible candidates currently for sale.

I'm thinking there's no point in looking at more pretty boat photos until I can get a decent price on a mooring for it to sit in. :)

 

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5 hours ago, ronnietucker said:

For mooring I was initially looking at the canal which runs through where I live, and where I work. It's giving guides of about £2k-£3k/yr:  http://www.livingonwater.co.uk/index.php/content/show/availability/current-availability - if I could find somewhere which was £70-100 it'd be ideal!

That will be (slightly deflated, following pricing review :huh: ) prices for residential moorings. Might be worth talking to Scottish Canals at Applecross Street about a leisure mooring. (Although S.C. seem to be neglecting provision for the leisure market, concentrating instead on the financial returns of residential moorings, preferably occupied by boats which don't move much!) Also, there have been boats for sale at Auchenstarry (near Kilsyth) recently (At one point I think there were about six)

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