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External Mains Input Socket


Bright Angel

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Questions ! My 16 amp mains hook up socket is "male" and facing down at 45 degrees. The plug on the cable is "female" with a shroud, which means that moisture (rain) will run down the outside of the socket and into the plug ! Someone told me that this is the wrong way round and that the socket should be female and the plug male, which make no sense from a safety point of view!

What is the correct configuration ?

Is it a BSS topic and why does the design appear to allow water into the system ?

Someone at a caravan shop suggested mounting the socket facing up so the water runs over the shroud on the plug but I have never seen it this way up.

Any advice appreciated.

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Your configuration is correct. The other way round would be dangerous. If you look inside the plug, you will see there is an outer plastic area where any water could collect, and the actual female connections are surrounded by plastic that prevents water getting in to the "important bits". Even if a bit of water does get in, it will drain out (and remember that contrary to popular belief, actual water isn't very conductive, its only stuff in the water that makes it so, or damp metallic corrosion etc). If you point the socket up at 45 degrees, water is likely to run down the cable and into the guts of the socket as most probably the cable grommet isnt waterproof. That would be much worse!

So your configuration is fine, just leave it as it is. But I would always advise switching off the power at source before plugging in or unplugging the hook-up plug.

Edited by nicknorman
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The somebody is is wrong.

What is on the end of your land line cable at the end it connects to the boat must be a socket, (female).

What is on the boat must be a plug, (male).

IMO the things are often a very poor design, and water does get in, if it is on the outside of the boat.

 

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1 hour ago, Bright Angel said:

why does the design appear to allow water into the system ?

Depends, is it actually suitably rated for outdoor use?

There are a lot of 16A appliance inlets kicking around that are only actually rated IP44 or so. That's the level of waterproofing you'd be allowed in a domestic bathroom as long as it's not actually too near the bath; not something that's really designed to be outside in the pissing rain. For outdoor use I'd normally want a rating of IP65 on something, but people can and do go with less.

This is a random IP44 rated appliance inlet:

EAW240_16.jpg

This is an IP65 rated one from the same supplier; to achieve that rating it needs to be used with an inline socket that has the matching flange for the sealing ring.

EAW240-16W.jpg

Obviously few boats bother, but that doesn't change the answer to your question, which may just be: "because it wasn't designed to keep water out in all conditions".

Edited by Giant
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4 hours ago, Giant said:

Depends, is it actually suitably rated for outdoor use?

There are a lot of 16A appliance inlets kicking around that are only actually rated IP44 or so. That's the level of waterproofing you'd be allowed in a domestic bathroom as long as it's not actually too near the bath; not something that's really designed to be outside in the pissing rain. For outdoor use I'd normally want a rating of IP65 on something, but people can and do go with less.

This is a random IP44 rated appliance inlet:

EAW240_16.jpg

This is an IP65 rated one from the same supplier; to achieve that rating it needs to be used with an inline socket that has the matching flange for the sealing ring.

EAW240-16W.jpg

Obviously few boats bother, but that doesn't change the answer to your question, which may just be: "because it wasn't designed to keep water out in all conditions".

As above, the IP44 rated sockets and plugs are not terribly waterproof. My boat is normally moored with the shore line connection sheltered from the prevailing westerly winds. If there is rain, or snow driving in from the north east for a few days it will get water in it and trip out the shore bollard RCD. I have tried it with the boat plug facing up and facing down and it makes no difference. Some people make a plastic shroud to shelter the connection from falling rain. A six pint rectangular plastic milk jug seems to be a good size for this. Not pretty, but works well. Basically, if you can give the IP44 connectors a bit of shelter then they will be OK. For a proper waterproof conne tion you need to go to a higher rating and a few boats have this. Most shore bollards have the IP44 outlets though with perhaps a bit of a shelter to divert water away.

If you do get water in the connection the cheapest solution may be to turn your boat round!


Jen

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Why people don't ùse the proper marine inlets like Ratio or Marinco is beyond me, not only are they of the correct IP rating but flush fitting. Actually I do know why, they cost more.

Edited by NMEA
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1 hour ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I have my wall mounted plug (the simpler of the two described above)  inside the boat, and the cable goes through a window (or on some moorings under the stern doors). 

 

 I was under the impression that that would be a BSS failure due to the boat movement potentially chafing the cable & it could short-out

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1 hour ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I have my wall mounted plug (the simpler of the two described above)  inside the boat, and the cable goes through a window (or on some moorings under the stern doors).

 

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 I was under the impression that that would be a BSS failure due to the boat movement potentially chafing the cable & it could short-out

 

If it is, then my BSS inspector who was very much on the ball on other details didn't pick up on it.

Ours is inside the engine room, which certainly avoids it filling with water.

Even with an external arrangement the cable will still drape across some part of the boat as it crosses to the bank, so I'm not sure it is possible to eliminate potential chafing entirely, is it?

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8 hours ago, Giant said:

Depends, is it actually suitably rated for outdoor use?

There are a lot of 16A appliance inlets kicking around that are only actually rated IP44 or so. That's the level of waterproofing you'd be allowed in a domestic bathroom as long as it's not actually too near the bath; not something that's really designed to be outside in the pissing rain. For outdoor use I'd normally want a rating of IP65 on something, but people can and do go with less.

This is a random IP44 rated appliance inlet:

EAW240_16.jpg

This is an IP65 rated one from the same supplier; to achieve that rating it needs to be used with an inline socket that has the matching flange for the sealing ring.

EAW240-16W.jpg

Obviously few boats bother, but that doesn't change the answer to your question, which may just be: "because it wasn't designed to keep water out in all conditions".

Just as a point of information. Both of these "look" like sockets because there is a big blue hole and so the other end ("plug") inserts into it. However it actually has pins so could be called a plug. Electrical folk use the terms male and female to avoid this ambiguity, the thing with the pins is always the male, though I expect this terminology would be seen as rude, sexist and very non-PC these days. 

.............Dave

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23 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

If it is, then my BSS inspector who was very much on the ball on other details didn't pick up on it.

Ours is inside the engine room, which certainly avoids it filling with water.

Even with an external arrangement the cable will still drape across some part of the boat as it crosses to the bank, so I'm not sure it is possible to eliminate potential chafing entirely, is it?

Thanks - I do make sure that there is a decent loop in the cable between the stanchion on the pontoon and the boat.  And there isn't s sharp edge on the top of the window pane. I think I'm more concerned about people walking on the cables...

For my recent test the preparation instructions said "Ensure that 230v mains electricity supplies (and inverters / generators) have been disconnected & that shore power leads are available for inspection."

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22 minutes ago, dmr said:

Electrical folk use the terms male and female to avoid this ambiguity, the thing with the pins is always the male...

Actually, I was taught the other way around. The thing with pins is always the plug. It might be a female plug which mates with a male socket like the above connectors, but it's still a plug because it has pins. 

Edited by WotEver
Autoincorrect fix
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17 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Actually, I was taught the other way around. The thing with pins is always the plug. It might be a female plug which mates with a male socket like the above connectors, but it's still a plug because it has pins. 

You could be right, It was a long time ago that I learnt this stuff. I did get myself very confused recently trying to get an adaptor to plug an aerial into the internet dongle, this uses a "reverse sma".

...........Dave

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

You could be right, It was a long time ago that I learnt this stuff. I did get myself very confused recently trying to get an adaptor to plug an aerial into the internet dongle, this uses a "reverse sma".

...........Dave

I could also be wrong. It was a long time ago that I learned it too ;)

It's particularly tricky with professional audio connectors - I want a cable mounted male socket 3 pin XLR please...

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39 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I could also be wrong. It was a long time ago that I learned it too ;)

It's particularly tricky with professional audio connectors - I want a cable mounted male socket 3 pin XLR please...

Just done a bit of googling, and it looks like it is the conducting pin itself that determines if a connector is male or female, so the mains thing fixed to the boat should always be male even though it looks like a socket, and the female bit on the cable then plugs into it.

The cable connector (plug) on an XLR is, I believe, usually female so that if you drop it onto something metal it will not short out. Hence the chassis mounted socket is usually male. You need a male line socket? This will be like the the chassis connector but to go onto a cable, this would be what goes onto one end of an XLR extension lead? I think Ive got one of these here on the boat somewhere. :D

I have used a speakon (XLR) connector on the boat to provide 12v to my wifes power hungry laptop as the standard 12v (DIN) connector was not up to the job.

.............Dave

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8 minutes ago, dmr said:

Just done a bit of googling, and it looks like it is the conducting pin itself that determines if a connector is male or female, so the mains thing fixed to the boat should always be male even though it looks like a socket, and the female bit on the cable then plugs into it.

The cable connector (plug) on an XLR is, I believe, usually female so that if you drop it onto something metal it will not short out. Hence the chassis mounted socket is usually male. You need a male line socket? This will be like the the chassis connector but to go onto a cable, this would be what goes onto one end of an XLR extension lead? I think Ive got one of these here on the boat somewhere. :D

I have used a speakon (XLR) connector on the boat to provide 12v to my wifes power hungry laptop as the standard 12v (DIN) connector was not up to the job.

.............Dave

The simple test is could you stick you fingers in and touch a connector that could be live, therefore the end of the cable that goes to the boat has to be female.  The fitting on the boat should never be live when there is nothing plugged into it so that is ok being the male connector.

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12 minutes ago, john6767 said:

The simple test is could you stick you fingers in and touch a connector that could be live, therefore the end of the cable that goes to the boat has to be female.  The fitting on the boat should never be live when there is nothing plugged into it so that is ok being the male connector.

I think there have been cases where the male connector on the boat becomes live when the inverter is on. This would fail your finger test big time. We have an inverter and Travelpower and the BSS man pointed out that it was essential that our wiring and switching did not let this happen, but accepted an assurance from me rather then doing any testing.

I do suspect that a fair few generators have a 13 amp plug on the end of a flying lead.

..............Dave

 

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4 minutes ago, dmr said:

I think there have been cases where the male connector on the boat becomes live when the inverter is on. This would fail your finger test big time. We have an inverter and Travelpower and the BSS man pointed out that it was essential that our wiring and switching did not let this happen, but accepted an assurance from me rather then doing any testing.

I do suspect that a fair few generators have a 13 amp plug on the end of a flying lead.

..............Dave

 

Surly that should never be allowed to happen, you have a break before make or a centre off change over switch so that the inverter output can never be connected to the shoreline input.  

Connecting a generator to a socket is madness, the mains plug would be live when not connected in so the shoreline connector is probably the least of you worries in that case!

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6 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Surly that should never be allowed to happen, you have a break before make or a centre off change over switch so that the inverter output can never be connected to the shoreline input.  

Connecting a generator to a socket is madness, the mains plug would be live when not connected in so the shoreline connector is probably the least of you worries in that case!

I suspect a lot of things that should never happen actually happen quite a lot, especially at the lower end liveaboard world where money is often very tight and wiring is DIY.  It must be very temping to wire an inverter directly to an existing installation, especially if you don't intend to use shorepower.

Ive done some pretty bad things as short term fixes and sometimes short term fixes stay around for longer than intended.

...........Dave

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Just as an aside...the reason I suspect that the caravan inlets are only IP44 rated is that they reside inside a water tight (ish ) battery box, or sometimes in their own little mini cupboard....which ever method is used they have pretty good weather resistance due to the depth of recess, and the covers or doors of the enclosure...unlike most narrowboats where they are stuck to the outside bulkhead!....uncovered!.....

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31 minutes ago, Stormbringer said:

Just as an aside...the reason I suspect that the caravan inlets are only IP44 rated is that they reside inside a water tight (ish ) battery box, or sometimes in their own little mini cupboard....which ever method is used they have pretty good weather resistance due to the depth of recess, and the covers or doors of the enclosure...unlike most narrowboats where they are stuck to the outside bulkhead!....uncovered!.....

Yes it would be nice to see steel boats with a proper recessed service connection box/ cupboard. Straight connectors in the "roof" of the cupboard, and cables exiting from a suitably "smoothed" gap below the access door. Just a thought.

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