BSC time

[Robbo]

I'm intrigued on what state the wiring is in!  Are you able to photo it?  Remember it never failed before as it's never been checked before!  12v is just as important to get right as 240v, there is a lot of potential current in those batteries which can easily cause cables to catch fire.  With 240v you are limited on the current from where you get it from (it's just more lethal to us due to the voltage)

Edited June 26, 2017 by Robbo

[MtB]

On 6/25/2017 at 15:33, Arthur Marshall said:

This is also true.  So basically other the guy who wired it and did the test, faked it and therefore shouldn;t be an examiner, or the guy who's doing it now doesn't know what he's doing and shouldn't be.  I've known the current guy on and off for twenty years and he's been examining since the test came in so presumably hasn't had a litany of complaints against him (and as said, he pointed out several other things which needed doing), so the wider question would be if there is an army of incompetent or inadequate examiners out there.  Or, which in my view is actually more likely, are the standards so far divergent from the reality of boats , and so badly defined, that it is actually impossible for them to be consistently applied?

Either way, I'm still a few hundred quid out of pocket, and peeved.  i have emailed the original tester (politely) to inform him of what's happening and ask his opinion, but he's away for a fortnight, so that's no help.

 

This is the standard response from a shady tradesman to a complaining customer. They are hoping after a fortnight something else in your life will have bumped your complaint off the top of your list and you'll Go Away. 

If you persist after a fortnight, you'll be told he has retired to Spain. Or Australia. Be prepared for that one and think about how you will counter it...

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Robbo said:

I'm intrigued on what state the wiring is in!  Are you able to photo it?  Remember it never failed before as it's never been checked before!  12v is just as important to get right as 240v, there is a lot of potential current in those batteries which can easily cause cables to catch fire.  With 240v you are limited on the current from where you get it from (it's just more lethal to us due to the voltage)

This is the way the guy left it.  What's happened since is that the engine's been hauled backwards and forwards and the wires are no longer tied together or sleeved, which they seem to be in the picture.  Apart from that, nothing's changed.  Obviously they need to be supported again and sleeved, but I can't see why that should cost two grand... There are no mega fuses, whatever they are, which the bloke coming to tidy it all up for me is going to install.

[MtB]

Well I have to say it looks a right mess. Loads of connection wrapped in duct tape just above the battery. Is that the first electrician's work?

Having said that, I've seen loads of boats with a similar standard of wiring and all with BSS tickets. I think your new bloke is perhaps a little too enthusiastic with his interpretation of the rules.  I'd be inclined to find a new BSS bod rather than have it all rewired again. His use of the term 'mega fuse' troubles me too. It is a trade name and it should just be called a 'fuse', in my opinion.  

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Obviously they need to be supported again and sleeved, but I can't see why that should cost two grand...

Not ideal, but I have seen worse.

This is my boat, I am slowly getting to grips with the wiring.

3 battery banks (each 2x 230Ah)- one of which was only connected to the alternator - there was nothing drawing off it at all - madness.

All of the 12v wiring is 'twin core Black & Decker' orange cable - makes it difficult to sort out what's what.

 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

41 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Well I have to say it looks a right mess. Loads of connection wrapped in duct tape just above the battery. Is that the first electrician's work?

I suspect that was me. I think I had to replace the bilge pump connection and just wrapped the connector in tape.  Anyway, I've rung the person I should have contacted in the first place, who knows the boat well and (as it turn out rather happily) is also respected by the examiner. It'll still be a a few hundred quid, but nowhere near two grand.  What a farce the BSC is.

I remember well when it started and they were insisting gas fridges had to be vented over the side with the fittings caravans use, and we all had to cut holes in the boat for them.  Mine got knocked off the first time I went through a lock and by the next season of testing it had been made advisory.  I've never had any time for the system since.

[StephenA]

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

This is the way the guy left it.  What's happened since is that the engine's been hauled backwards and forwards and the wires are no longer tied together or sleeved, which they seem to be in the picture.  Apart from that, nothing's changed. 

It does look a bit of a mess and the mix of red and black on what I assume are the battery master switches is a bit worrying... but I've seen worse...

I still don't understand this "Mega Fuses" bit..  Battery Master switches as close to the Batteries as possible and then suitable fuses in the circuits that need it.

Our first BSC got a "fail" because of "incorrect gauge wiring in the control panel" (where it's all very low current with relays doing the main work [all fused]) and a complete misunderstanding of a common bonding point on the negative circuit ("incorrect connection to the chassis")

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, StephenA said:

I still don't understand this "Mega Fuses" bit..  Battery Master switches as close to the Batteries as possible and then suitable fuses in the circuits that need it.

Me neither. 

Battery +ve to isolator doesn't need a fuse (but it needs to be as short as possible and neatly clipped in place if appropriate). Isolator to Fuseboard doesn't need a fuse either (same rules regarding length and support). Anything which bypasses the isolator must be fused but this is a simple boat - no inverter or other high drain device bypassing the isolator - so what's the big fuse for?

2 hours ago, StephenA said:

Our first BSC got a "fail" because of "incorrect gauge wiring in the control panel" (where it's all very low current with relays doing the main work [all fused]) and a complete misunderstanding of a common bonding point on the negative circuit ("incorrect connection to the chassis")

So did you give the examiner a stern talking to or did you appeal to head office?

[MtB]

Yes I was thinking this too, appeal the fail to BSS Office. Appeal on the basis you haven't been given details of precisely what the faults are, so how can you possibly go about about fixing them?

[StephenA]

8 hours ago, WotEver said:

So did you give the examiner a stern talking to or did you appeal to head office?

We simply pointed out that the control panel was all low current (and was fused correctly)  and that the issue with the negative connection point was that the negative to hull wire from the BM switch (which was 3 inches long) had the engine negative connected to the hull mounting point rather than to the other end of the 3 inch cable.  He didn't challenge that at all - he just signed it off... I suspect in reality he had no clue at all about electrics.

[Gareth E]

I don't like the term 'name and shame'. It smacks of playground behaviour and the accuser is the sole arbiter in the condemnation. I do feel though that the community here would benefit from knowing the identity of the examiner in question, this would likely aid their choice of who to employ (or not!) when their own bsc time comes around.

In he meantime Arthur, if you'd like to know the details of an examiner in the area who is knowledgable and takes a practical, common sense approach, feel free to pm me.

[Robbo]

12 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

I don't like the term 'name and shame'. It smacks of playground behaviour and the accuser is the sole arbiter in the condemnation. I do feel though that the community here would benefit from knowing the identity of the examiner in question, this would likely aid their choice of who to employ (or not!) when their own bsc time comes around.

In he meantime Arthur, if you'd like to know the details of an examiner in the area who is knowledgable and takes a practical, common sense approach, feel free to pm me.

A common sense approach on that wiring would be to start again.  It may only need s few things to be compliant but it may take time to trace the cables.  That really isn't the examiners job.

[Chewbacka]

15 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

This is the way the guy left it.  What's happened since is that the engine's been hauled backwards and forwards and the wires are no longer tied together or sleeved, which they seem to be in the picture.  Apart from that, nothing's changed.  Obviously they need to be supported again and sleeved, but I can't see why that should cost two grand... There are no mega fuses, whatever they are, which the bloke coming to tidy it all up for me is going to install.

Some comments on the wires visible in this photo, and this is just my opinion - the numbers in () refer to the current BSS checklist.

1)  Battery terminals are not insulated/protected (3.1.3)
2)  There appears to be a 'thin' unfused cable going from the battery isolator to a silver tape connection.  As it is unfused and could be argued either as a battery cable then it appears to be too thin (3.2.2), though it could also be described as a supply to a device and as such can be a 'thin' wire, but must be fused.
The cables are too long to be unsupported and in addition  appear to be rubbing on the lip of the battery box. (3.3.1)
3)  It is not clear if any of your circuits bypass the battery isolator, but if they do they must be fused (3.6.2)
 

Whilst a big fuse - a common brand being a mega fuse - is considered by some as best practice to have close to the battery, it is not as far as I am aware a BSS requirement, so did the examiner 'advise' having one, or was it a 'fail'?

To tidy that lot up is not a large job, though having said that I am not sure what the wiring is like 'out of picture'.

Good luck in getting it all sorted.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Gareth E said:

I don't like the term 'name and shame'. It smacks of playground behaviour and the accuser is the sole arbiter in the condemnation. I do feel though that the community here would benefit from knowing the identity of the examiner in question, this would likely aid their choice of who to employ (or not!) when their own bsc time comes around.

In he meantime Arthur, if you'd like to know the details of an examiner in the area who is knowledgable and takes a practical, common sense approach, feel free to pm me.

I don't think I should do that. I've been careful not to give identification clues because I am not sure that anyone has done anything wrong apart from throwing me into a panic. The examiner has a good rep and so does everything else involved - I think this is a collision of problems and possibly misunderstandings. But I'll pm you... 

[Alan de Enfield]

16 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 

Unless my eyes are failing more than I thought - the left hand side (in the picture) master-switch doesn't appear to have anything coming 'off it' and appears to be acting solely as a busbar between the battery, the split charge relay (??) and the 'thin-wire'

[Northernboater]

15 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I suspect that was me. I think I had to replace the bilge pump connection and just wrapped the connector in tape.  Anyway, I've rung the person I should have contacted in the first place, who knows the boat well and (as it turn out rather happily) is also respected by the examiner. It'll still be a a few hundred quid, but nowhere near two grand.  What a farce the BSC is.

39 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't think I should do that. I've been careful not to give identification clues because I am not sure that anyone has done anything wrong apart from throwing me into a panic. The examiner has a good rep and so does everything else involved - I think this is a collision of problems and possibly misunderstandings. But I'll pm you...

 

How much work have you yourself done to this since the last BSS? as you say you think you had to replace the bilge pump connection. If that was me I think I would remember.  You also said the engine has been hauled backwards and forwards and the wires moved and above you say "I am not sure that anyone has done anything wrong apart from throwing me into a panic" I can't see a BSS examiner leaving it in this condition. Are you sure someone else or yourself have not caused this mess when you have been working on the engine? As a BSS examiner would his reputation and any future work at stake if he left it in this state.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Northernboater

[Arthur Marshall]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unless my eyes are failing more than I thought - the left hand side (in the picture) master-switch doesn't appear to have anything coming 'off it' and appears to be acting solely as a busbar between the battery, the split charge relay (??) and the 'thin-wire'

I think that's an optical illusion - as far as I know it's always been wired correctly.  Certainly is now.

 

11 minutes ago, Northernboater said:

How much work have you yourself done to this since the last BSS? as you say you think you had to replace the bilge pump connection. If that was me I think I would remember.  You also said the engine has been hauled backwards and forwards and the wires moved and above you say "I am not sure that anyone has done anything wrong apart from throwing me into a panic" I can't see a BSS examiner leaving it in this condition. Are you sure someone else or yourself have not caused this mess when you have been working on the engine? As a BSS examiner would his reputation and any future work at stake if he left it in this state.

I can't be sure when this pic was taken, I just found it on the PC. I'm pretty sure that one of the engineers must have moved a lot of the wires when extracting the gearbox and neither he nor i though much about it till now.

 

56 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Some comments on the wires visible in this photo, and this is just my opinion - the numbers in () refer to the current BSS checklist.

1)  Battery terminals are not insulated/protected (3.1.3)
2)  There appears to be a 'thin' unfused cable going from the battery isolator to a silver tape connection.  As it is unfused and could be argued either as a battery cable then it appears to be too thin (3.2.2), though it could also be described as a supply to a device and as such can be a 'thin' wire, but must be fused.
The cables are too long to be unsupported and in addition  appear to be rubbing on the lip of the battery box. (3.3.1)
3)  It is not clear if any of your circuits bypass the battery isolator, but if they do they must be fused (3.6.2)
 

Whilst a big fuse - a common brand being a mega fuse - is considered by some as best practice to have close to the battery, it is not as far as I am aware a BSS requirement, so did the examiner 'advise' having one, or was it a 'fail'?

To tidy that lot up is not a large job, though having said that I am not sure what the wiring is like 'out of picture'.

Good luck in getting it all sorted.

That's helpful. The examiner said nothing about a "big fuse" - that was the electrician insisting on it.

 

2 hours ago, Robbo said:

A common sense approach on that wiring would be to start again.  It may only need s few things to be compliant but it may take time to trace the cables.  That really isn't the examiners job.

That's what they wanted two and a half grand to do.

[Northernboater]

17 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think that's an optical illusion - as far as I know it's always been wired correctly.  Certainly is now.

 

I can't be sure when this pic was taken, I just found it on the PC. I'm pretty sure that one of the engineers must have moved a lot of the wires when extracting the gearbox and neither he nor i though much about it till now.

 

That's helpful. The examiner said nothing about a "big fuse" - that was the electrician insisting on it.

 

That's what they wanted two and a half grand to do.

  From the first thread you seemed to have blamed the original BSS examiner for the wiring mess and the fail of the new BSS wiring and people have called in doubt his competence as an examiner because of this. Then above you say your pretty sure the wires have been moved by an engineer extracting the gearbox and nobody thought much about it, then funny old thing it fails it's BSS.

  Who really is to blame for the wiring mess and the BSS failure? I would that it is you and people who have carried out work to the engine since the last BSS,  especially yourself for not knowing or checking what they have done, not the original guy as it looks like his work has been altered causing the fail.

[Robbo]

26 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

That's helpful. The examiner said nothing about a "big fuse" - that was the electrician insisting on it.

 

That's what they wanted two and a half grand to do.

On a rewire I would insist on best practises, not just a "BSS compliant" install, no point going to all that trouble re-wiring and not getting it done right.

Two n half grand does seem overly excessive, even if it's a full 2 days work.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Two n half grand does seem overly excessive, even if it's a full 2 days work.

Don't forget 'materials'.

[b0atman]

I think £2000 would get a full rewire and give a lot of change back figure of £200 would be labour max with materials extra. BOAT seems to be price estimate here.

 

[MtB]

On 27/06/2017 at 11:24, b0atman said:

I think £2000 would get a full rewire and give a lot of change back figure of £200 would be labour max with materials extra. BOAT seems to be price estimate here.

 

 

Thus speaks the man who isn't doing the work!

"Rewiring a boat" would seem like about two days' work to me too, but that is conditional on there being good access to all the wiring routes to all the remote electrical loads like water pump, shower pump, all the ceiling light fittings, etc etc. On/off switches also all have to be reached. If all the new wiring requires cabin ceilings, wall panels etc to be taken down and put back then I can imagine it easily turning into a week's work for one bloke, or more.

Wiring a boat at the build stage is quick and easy. Re-wiring a finished boat is a different kettle of fish. Much of the work involved is getting access to where the wires will go, not actually doing wiring. 

 

[b0atman]

i thought it was engine bay wiring that was the problem surely internal has a fuseboard ?

 

[MtB]

On 27/06/2017 at 12:53, b0atman said:

i thought it was engine bay wiring that was the problem surely internal has a fuseboard ?

 

 

Hmmm the OP is ambiguous. He says on one hand he only had the "battery to control panel" (not sure what that means) rewired, then later says the whole lot was condemned, suggesting to me ALL the boat wiring. 

If it in only the battery to consumer unit wiring that needs changing then yes I agree with you, £200 seems about right. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Northernboater]

45 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Hmmm the OP is ambiguous. He says on one hand he only had the "battery to control panel" (not sure what that means) rewired, then later says the whole lot was condemned, suggesting to me ALL the boat wiring. 

 

I don't think the OP know's what he's doing or talking about, he blamed the first BSS examiner/electrician for the engine bay battery wiring, then said that there had been work done to the engine and the wires were moved when the engine/gearbox was replaced, he thinks he fitted new connections for a bilge pump. Everyone has asked questions about the original BSS examiner's credibility due to the information stated by the OP, but I imagine there has been quite a bit work done to the boat since he issued the BSS.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Northernboater