BSC time

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

The red highlighted bit doesn't sound right - a BSS tester can't ask for further tests/reports/whatever, its his job to look at it and pass or fail based on what he sees and tests.

 

The ONLY exception is a quirk of the reulations due to gas safety rules and breaking open a test point on a liveaboard boat, but there's NOTHING in the electrical or any other area where he can demand further reports etc.

I would go along with that.The inspector should know if it passes or not, that is his job.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would go along with that.The inspector should know if it passes or not, that is his job.

Even if it were true (which I agree, it is not) what on earth is a qualified boat electrician?

[Arthur Marshall]

18 hours ago, Paul C said:

The red highlighted bit doesn't sound right - a BSS tester can't ask for further tests/reports/whatever, its his job to look at it and pass or fail based on what he sees and tests.

 

The ONLY exception is a quirk of the reulations due to gas safety rules and breaking open a test point on a liveaboard boat, but there's NOTHING in the electrical or any other area where he can demand further reports etc.

I think in the circs that's a bit unfair.  Essentially, he came down to give the boat a look over and advise me as to what, if anything, needed to be done before it would pass the test. I've known this several times in the past - rather than issue an official fail, the inspector will tell you what you need to do and then give you some time to do it.  Several other things were noted and advice given how to rectify them, all of which I agreed with completely and was able to sort out myself.  The wiring would certainly fail the test, what was needed was an expert opinion on certain bits of it - sleeving, support, grommet and the replacement of one main cable by a thicker one are all obvious, and I could do all those myself.  What I don't know and can't give, and what he wanted, was an assurance that all the wiring was of the right gauge and that the wiring in the panel was safe.  Presumably the original electrician knows what he did, but it's such a rats nest of wires (all the same colour) that I can understand why nobody else can work it out.

To answer someone else's post, no he didn't recommend any specific electrician to deal with it.  He reluctantly gave me a few places where i could chase one up (one or two of whom I knew) but was very specific that he was not saying anyone in particular had to be used.  Now I've calmed down a bit, I'm going to try to contact the original bloke and get something from him that may sort it out...

[Chewbacka]

19 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think in the circs that's a bit unfair.  Essentially, he came down to give the boat a look over and advise me as to what, if anything, needed to be done before it would pass the test. I've known this several times in the past - rather than issue an official fail, the inspector will tell you what you need to do and then give you some time to do it.  Several other things were noted and advice given how to rectify them, all of which I agreed with completely and was able to sort out myself.  The wiring would certainly fail the test, what was needed was an expert opinion on certain bits of it - sleeving, support, grommet and the replacement of one main cable by a thicker one are all obvious, and I could do all those myself.  What I don't know and can't give, and what he wanted, was an assurance that all the wiring was of the right gauge and that the wiring in the panel was safe.  Presumably the original electrician knows what he did, but it's such a rats nest of wires (all the same colour) that I can understand why nobody else can work it out.

To answer someone else's post, no he didn't recommend any specific electrician to deal with it.  He reluctantly gave me a few places where i could chase one up (one or two of whom I knew) but was very specific that he was not saying anyone in particular had to be used.  Now I've calmed down a bit, I'm going to try to contact the original bloke and get something from him that may sort it out...

It is not reasonable for him to ask this question as you are not qualified to make that judgement (not an electrician) nor you did not fit out the electrics.  The BSS cheklist does not require or expect the boater to give such assurance.  However what you can say is that "to the best of my knowledge and understanding the wiring complies with the regulations as it was installed by xxxxxxxxx and no modifications have subsequently been undertaken, therefore I have no reason to not believe it is both compliant and safe".   As the examiner it is his responsibility to then - without removing panels etc - assess the wiring against the BSS check list and not the RCD regs.  If he wishes to fail the wiring then he must give specific fail points and not just 'I don't like it'.  However it is not unreasonable for him at a pre-check  to advise that it is looked at by someone competent if concerned.  But that is only advice.  If you choose not to have it assessed by a third party, then that in itself is not a justification to fail the boat.  

[WotEver]

10 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

It is not reasonable for him to ask this question as you are not qualified to make that judgement (not an electrician) nor you did not fit out the electrics.  The BSS cheklist does not require or expect the boater to give such assurance.  However what you can say is that "to the best of my knowledge and understanding the wiring complies with the regulations as it was installed by xxxxxxxxx and no modifications have subsequently been undertaken, therefore I have no reason to not believe it is both compliant and safe".   As the examiner it is his responsibility to then - without removing panels etc - assess the wiring against the BSS check list and not the RCD regs.  If he wishes to fail the wiring then he must give specific fail points and not just 'I don't like it'.  However it is not unreasonable for him at a pre-check  to advise that it is looked at by someone competent if concerned.  But that is only advice.  If you choose not to have it assessed by a third party, then that in itself is not a justification to fail the boat.  

^^^^ This. 

The ONLY person who can say whether the wiring passes the BSS regs is the inspector who is issuing (or refusing to issue) the certificate. If he/she decides that it doesn't pass they must be specific as to why and list every individual failure. 

45 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

What I don't know and can't give, and what he wanted, was an assurance that all the wiring was of the right gauge and that the wiring in the panel was safe. 

And for the reasons you list, the requirement is unreasonable. It's also unnecessary as it's the inspector's job to say whether or not it is safe, and if not why not. 

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think in the circs that's a bit unfair. 

To be completely fair, you didn't detail it was a pre-inspection check, and in any case I feel the original comment still should apply if he's competent, but that it appears he didn't estimate the considerable amount of time it might take to thoroughly check the wiring (or simply doesn't know how to do it). It appears that one "expert" has installed a snake's wedding of wiring, which probably is compliant except for a few areas but doesn't help itself if its untidy and illogical; then another "expert" has come to inspect it and is confused by the mass of wires and because it was an informal pre-inspection rather than an actual BSS test, took the easy option of "I don't know" on certain aspects - a timesaver but not ultimately helpful to you. If he were doing a BSS test he would need to come to a pass/fail decision on the wiring, and detail the fails with the BSS test code numbers.

One might conclude you've been extremenly unlucky to chance upon, and give money to, two "experts" who aren't quite competent but personally I'm not surprised.

[cuthound]

If you have the time and inclination, you could trace the wires and label or put id numbers them.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Cable-Markers-100-Colourful-C-type-Marker-Number-Tag-Label-4-6mm-Cat5-D13/776933035?iid=201795357626

Some will be easy, ie those that connect to a switch that operates something and those connected to pumps, the horn etc.

Others will need to be checked by buzzing them out with a meter or tone generator. 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

If you have the time and inclination, you could trace the wires and label or put id numbers them.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Cable-Markers-100-Colourful-C-type-Marker-Number-Tag-Label-4-6mm-Cat5-D13/776933035?iid=201795357626

Some will be easy, ie those that connect to a switch that operates something and those connected to pumps, the horn etc.

Others will need to be checked by buzzing them out with a meter or tone generator. 

But there is no requirement for cables to be labelled in the BSS there may in the RCD, that I don't know and is not applicable here

 

[cuthound]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

But there is no requirement for cables to be labelled in the BSS there may in the RCD, that I don't know and is not applicable here

 

I know, but the OP said all cables were the same colour, so I was thinking it would be relatively easy to identify many of the cables to avoid future confusion and ease fault finding.

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, Paul C said:

To be completely fair, you didn't detail it was a pre-inspection check, and in any case I feel the original comment still should apply if he's competent, but that it appears he didn't estimate the considerable amount of time it might take to thoroughly check the wiring (or simply doesn't know how to do it). It appears that one "expert" has installed a snake's wedding of wiring, which probably is compliant except for a few areas but doesn't help itself if its untidy and illogical; then another "expert" has come to inspect it and is confused by the mass of wires and because it was an informal pre-inspection rather than an actual BSS test, took the easy option of "I don't know" on certain aspects - a timesaver but not ultimately helpful to you. If he were doing a BSS test he would need to come to a pass/fail decision on the wiring, and detail the fails with the BSS test code numbers.

One might conclude you've been extremenly unlucky to chance upon, and give money to, two "experts" who aren't quite competent but personally I'm not surprised.

That, I think, sums it up extremely well.  Every time the BSC comes round, it seems something is found to be unsatisfactory which was fine the time before although the standards haven't changed.  I just feel that the whole thing is a total rip-off, occasionally deliberately by the inspectors (like the one who failed all my fire extinguishers and just happened to have some very expensive ones in his van that he'd sell me and then pass the boat) but usually just because it is so much a personal view.

I just have the feeling that if i get the rewire done and this inspector retires so i have to use another one next time, he'll find another reason to fail and so ad infinitum.  Basically, I'm pissed off... there again, I've probably only got a few years boating left so what the hell.  Letting off steam on here is very therapeutic...

[Robbo]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

That, I think, sums it up extremely well.  Every time the BSC comes round, it seems something is found to be unsatisfactory which was fine the time before although the standards haven't changed.  I just feel that the whole thing is a total rip-off, occasionally deliberately by the inspectors (like the one who failed all my fire extinguishers and just happened to have some very expensive ones in his van that he'd sell me and then pass the boat) but usually just because it is so much a personal view.

I just have the feeling that if i get the rewire done and this inspector retires so i have to use another one next time, he'll find another reason to fail and so ad infinitum.  Basically, I'm pissed off... there again, I've probably only got a few years boating left so what the hell.  Letting off steam on here is very therapeutic...

Apart from this wiring is new wiring and may have never been up to standard as this the first time it's been checked for the BSC apart from the person that did the wiring!  If the wiring is not up to standard then he is the one to blame, they have not changed in the past four years.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Robbo

[Arthur Marshall]

57 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Apart from this wiring is new wiring and may have never been up to standard as this the first time it's been checked for the BSC apart from the person that did the wiring!  If the wiring is not up to standard then he is the one to blame, they have not changed in the past four years.

This is also true.  So basically other the guy who wired it and did the test, faked it and therefore shouldn;t be an examiner, or the guy who's doing it now doesn't know what he's doing and shouldn't be.  I've known the current guy on and off for twenty years and he's been examining since the test came in so presumably hasn't had a litany of complaints against him (and as said, he pointed out several other things which needed doing), so the wider question would be if there is an army of incompetent or inadequate examiners out there.  Or, which in my view is actually more likely, are the standards so far divergent from the reality of boats , and so badly defined, that it is actually impossible for them to be consistently applied?

Either way, I'm still a few hundred quid out of pocket, and peeved.  i have emailed the original tester (politely) to inform him of what's happening and ask his opinion, but he's away for a fortnight, so that's no help.

[Robbo]

Do you have a friendly neighbour who's up on electrics to give his/her opinion?

[Machpoint005]

On 23/06/2017 at 20:59, Arthur Marshall said:

Experts (electricians, engineers) all talk a language that those of us who don't know that much about stuff can't follow. 

Electricians and mechanics, even some inspectors and examiners, maybe.

Engineers should be able to explain things to an intelligent layman (or woman). That is what professional engineering is all about. 

3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

the one who failed all my fire extinguishers

At what point would you prefer to discover that your extinguishers were no good? 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

At what point would you prefer to discover that your extinguishers were no good? 

So, what is your argument for the BSSC surveyor who 'passed' my boat with these 3 extinguishers  (in the Aft Bedroom, Saloon, and Galley / Dining room) in 2016.

Note the expiry date :

BSSC - is just 'jobs for the boys', it is a worthless piece of paper that is only useful to get your licence.

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

Electricians and mechanics, even some inspectors and examiners, maybe.

Engineers should be able to explain things to an intelligent layman (or woman). That is what professional engineering is all about. 

At what point would you prefer to discover that your extinguishers were no good? 

Second point first, the extinguishers were virtually new but had been bought before they had to be kite marked (before the test came in). I didn't mind being told that they had to be replaced, I just thought it a bit cheeky for the examiner to obviously have a supply in his van which he obviously sold at a profit to people whose boats he failed. You will gather this was quite a while back!

And you might think professional engineering might be about that and I am advised that I am fairly intelligent, but that aint what engineers do, or any experts or that matter. Most of the engineers I've run into in the past few years have been good at some of what they do and blatantly incompetent at other bits, which then have to be sorted out by the next engineer to come along (a bit like my electricians, in fact). And all (bar one) incapable of, and uninterested in, explaining what needed doing or why.  Waving a bit of engine in the air and saying "look, it's bust", doesn't cut the mustard.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Note the expiry date

A bit of Tippex and you could add 8 years to those extinguishers

[Chewbacka]

10 hours ago, WotEver said:

A bit of Tippex and you could add 8 years to those extinguishers

These extinguishers are in a bit of a grey area as the BSS requirements state " having passed the manufacturer’s express ‘expiry’ or ‘replace  by’ date; "  now on these there is no express expiry or replace date, just a valid date, but it is far from clear as to what is valid or not.  So a difficult call for the BSS examiner to make.  Maybe he just did not notice the date marking when checking the approval mark etc.

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Maybe he just did not notice the date marking when checking the approval mark etc

I'm sure that must be the reason - so busy looking at the multitude of 1" sized approval markings that he missed the 6"+ 'valid until' date..

Surely anyone would realise that the 'valid until' date .................................  No I won't go there !!!

[Machpoint005]

12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

what is your argument for the BSSC surveyor who 'passed' my boat with these 3 extinguishers

As I recall, the fire extinguisher requirements vary according to the equipment on board as well as the expiry date. I don't need to comment on the decision/opinion of any individual examiner, nor can I without all the facts, but I note that neither you nor Arthur has answered my question as to when you would prefer to find out an extinguisher was no good.

I imagine it's not when there's a fire.

I am well aware that 'expired' extinguishers will often work perfectly well, but that's not the point, is it? What if somebody less intelligent or considered than your good selves decided that an expired extinguisher was fine, then couldn't escape from a fire because it didn't work?  Risk management is all about "what if" and minimising the danger.    Where do you draw the line?

As to the acceptable extinguishers the examiner just happened to have with him, there was no compulsion as far as I can see to take advantage of a service other people might well have found helpful.

As to the 'passing' of expired extinguishers, why would you offer a boat for a BSS exam with extinguishers six years out of date?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

As to the 'passing' of expired extinguishers, why would you offer a boat for a BSS exam with extinguishers six years out of date?

It was a boat I was buying, and as a condition of purchase I insisted it be given a new BSSC as the old one only had 2 years to run, and the agreement was that anything it needed to 'pass' would be rectified at the broker / sellers expense.

I doubt if the examiner even left the office.

I have little or no 'faith' in the system, or its examiners so generally 'set up' a 'secret shopper test' for them - typically on my last NB I

1) Removed the 'fuel shut off below' label

2) Removed the 'diesel' label

3) Ran a single core cable (cable tied) along the gas pipe under the gunnels.

 

As may be expected, the boat failed - however - not on the above three items but on not having an RCD fitted.

Now - as you all know, an RCD is purely an advisory and not a mandatory requirement.

I view the BSSC as meaningless in its own right, and is simply a way of adding another £150 to the licence fee.

 

But to answer your question about 'expiry'.

Any piece of equipment should be maintained / serviced / replaced in accordance with the manufacturers recommendation, so if Fire extinguisher are stated to have a 5 year life, then that is when they are replaced, if my engine needs an oil change every 100 hours that is what it gets, if the recommendation is to change water pump impellors annually that is what I do.

Is that not the 'normal way', or, am I wrong ?

[Arthur Marshall]

38 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

As to the acceptable extinguishers the examiner just happened to have with him, there was no compulsion as far as I can see to take advantage of a service other people might well have found helpful.

 

Under the pressure of an examiner refusing to issue a certificate, with the uncertain nature of the whole business, i just took it as a bribe to pass the boat and a veiled threat not to if i didn't.  I may have ben wrong.

Regarding my current problems, am I right in saying that if I get the examiner to do the test and fail the electrics officially, he has to give me a detailed checklist of what has failed, with chapter and verse for each particular part of the system?  He can't just fail it on the grounds that he doesn't understand it, or doesn't like the look of it, or isn't sure?

If he does that, I can simply get someone to repair what he has listed rather then the whole caboodle.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Under the pressure of an examiner refusing to issue a certificate, with the uncertain nature of the whole business, i just took it as a bribe to pass the boat and a veiled threat not to if i didn't.  I may have ben wrong.

Regarding my current problems, am I right in saying that if I get the examiner to do the test and fail the electrics officially, he has to give me a detailed checklist of what has failed, with chapter and verse for each particular part of the system?  He can't just fail it on the grounds that he doesn't understand it, or doesn't like the look of it, or isn't sure?

If he does that, I can simply get someone to repair what he has listed rather then the whole caboodle.

I think (guessing) that all you would get is a 'check list' saying (something like)

Section 6:1 does not comply

Section 6:2 does not comply

Section 7:1 does not comply

 

You may be lucky and get someone who will 'expand' on the problems but then you may not.

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

As I recall, the fire extinguisher requirements vary according to the equipment on board as well as the expiry date. I don't need to comment on the decision/opinion of any individual examiner, nor can I without all the facts, but I note that neither you nor Arthur has answered my question as to when you would prefer to find out an extinguisher was no good.

I imagine it's not when there's a fire.

I am well aware that 'expired' extinguishers will often work perfectly well, but that's not the point, is it? What if somebody less intelligent or considered than your good selves decided that an expired extinguisher was fine, then couldn't escape from a fire because it didn't work?  Risk management is all about "what if" and minimising the danger.    Where do you draw the line?

As to the acceptable extinguishers the examiner just happened to have with him, there was no compulsion as far as I can see to take advantage of a service other people might well have found helpful.

As to the 'passing' of expired extinguishers, why would you offer a boat for a BSS exam with extinguishers six years out of date?

I agree that if an extinguisher has passed it's expiry date it will fail the BSS UNLESS it has a - quoting from the current BSS check list - "NOTE -  portable fire extinguishers having passed the manufacturer’s express ‘expiry’ or ‘replace by’ dates are  acceptable if supported by evidence of servicing in accordance with BS 5306 by a service technician within the  last 12 months. Evidence must be in the form of a service label on the extinguisher and an associated invoice or  service report on headed paper from a company recognisable as an extinguisher servicing company. "

However many extinguishers do not have an explicit expiry or replace by date - mine have only a manufacturing date - and the BSS requires only a visual check on condition, it does not specify an expiry age, the presumption on my part being that the BSS experts do not consider extinguishers as degrading to an unacceptable level of performance over time.

 

As to the examiner having some extinguishers with him, if they are a common fail point and if supplying them to customers that want them so as to get a pass and avoid having a recheck - that may be chargeable - then so long as he is not abusing his position he is actually offering an additional service.

 I would advise anybody having a BSS to go through the check list before the inspection so as to identify and fix the obvious fail points.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Chewbacka

[Arthur Marshall]

Just to bring you up to date, I've just had a quote from the people who came to look at it. I'll not name names. Bear in mind that this is a boat with 12 volt only, half a dozen lights, two water pumps and a car radio as the load, plus the headlight, horn starter etc.  To install mega fuses and tidy up the wiring (that's just the engine bay stuff to the panel, nothing wrong with the actual internal stuff), replacing what needs to be done, just over two thousand pounds.   This is a boat that has never failed on the electrics before and had it all redone anyway four years ago.  At most it's two days work, probably only one if only what actually needs to be done is done. 

Needless to say, I'm getting another quote.