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Controversial widebeam continuous cruiser


Peppers

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This is fascinating - so much to learn!!

 

So - how about we get something like this:

http://newandusedboat.co.uk/new-boats-for-sale/160 (as an example)

Then get a decent (albeit land) builder/joiner, combined with a boat electrician and a boat gas person to get it to a decent enough empty-boat sort of standard - which we should have more than enough money to do if we were going to spend 80k - right?!

Does that sound correct or am I missing something?

 

So so so glad I came here!

 

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8 minutes ago, Peppers said:

This is fascinating - so much to learn!!

 

So - how about we get something like this:

http://newandusedboat.co.uk/new-boats-for-sale/160 (as an example)

Then get a decent (albeit land) builder/joiner, combined with a boat electrician and a boat gas person to get it to a decent enough empty-boat sort of standard - which we should have more than enough money to do if we were going to spend 80k - right?!

Does that sound correct or am I missing something?

 

So so so glad I came here!

 

"That's the way to do it" !!!!!

 

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8 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Hooray!!!

 

BUT

Ensure your builder / joiner does not intend to use a spirit level to get things 'straight'.

Boats 'move' side to side and front to back - a full water tank (at the front) will make the front dip down, whilst a fuel fuel tank (at the rear) will make the rear end dip.

A couple of people on one side and guess what happens ?

All fittings should be installed 'using the Mk1 Eyeball'

Eg : You need the water to run out of the sink so build it so it does - and it may have little relationship to the 'levelness of the floor' (boats tend to slope uphill towards the front - that's the pointy-bit)

 

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40 minutes ago, Peppers said:

This is fascinating - so much to learn!!

 

So - how about we get something like this:

http://newandusedboat.co.uk/new-boats-for-sale/160 (as an example)

Then get a decent (albeit land) builder/joiner, combined with a boat electrician and a boat gas person to get it to a decent enough empty-boat sort of standard - which we should have more than enough money to do if we were going to spend 80k - right?!

Does that sound correct or am I missing something?

 

So so so glad I came here!

 

Be aware that the woodworking on a boat is not as straight forward as on land, especially if if the boat is floating. A spirit level and plumb line are pretty useless because the boat rolls and alters its trim as you move about and in any case the floor is unlikely to be horizontal fore to aft. The sides are also rarely vertical and much of cutting bulkheads etc. requires the use of patterns. Just a warning that land based tradespeople with no experience of boats may find it strange and price accordingly.

 

crossed with Alan

Edited by Tony Brooks
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6 hours ago, Peppers said:

This is fascinating - so much to learn!!

 

So - how about we get something like this:

http://newandusedboat.co.uk/new-boats-for-sale/160 (as an example)

Then get a decent (albeit land) builder/joiner, combined with a boat electrician and a boat gas person to get it to a decent enough empty-boat sort of standard - which we should have more than enough money to do if we were going to spend 80k - right?!

Does that sound correct or am I missing something?

 

So so so glad I came here!

 

Note that price is ex VAT

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1 minute ago, mad dog n' Englishman said:

Is there not a vat exemption if used as a home ?  Must also need following up. No vat equals more to spend on fit out.

NO NO NO.

Don't start hares running.

 

There are very very very few 'widebeams' that will actually legally comply with the VAT regulations, and some 'devious' manufacturers actually include a clause in the contract that if HMRCE decide subsequently that the boat is to be subject to VAT, then the buyer - not the manufacturer - is legally liable.

In at least one known case the buyer had to find the VAT payment and only given 'days' to pay it as it was (technically) overdue.

The application of zero-rated VAT requires meeting several criteria - one of which is 'GROSS TONNAGE' of at least 15 Tonnes.

THIS IS NOT THE WEIGHT OF THE BOAT

It is a mathematical calculation based on the dimensional rating of Merchant Ships.

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5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Note that price is ex VAT

 

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

NO NO NO.

Don't start hares running.

 

There are very very very few 'widebeams' that will actually legally comply with the VAT regulations, and some 'devious' manufacturers actually include a clause in the contract that if HMRCE decide subsequently that the boat is to be subject to VAT, then the buyer - not the manufacturer - is legally liable.

In at least one known case the buyer had to find the VAT payment and only given 'days' to pay it as it was (technically) overdue.

The application of zero-rated VAT requires meeting several criteria - one of which is 'GROSS TONNAGE' of at least 15 Tonnes.

THIS IS NOT THE WEIGHT OF THE BOAT

It is a mathematical calculation based on the dimensional rating of Merchant Ships.

We went to new and used boat company today and they said it would be VAT exempt because we'd be living on it. Tbh they said all widebeams would be VAT exempt if we live aboard. Is this a bit of a myth then? How do you know which ones are ex VAT and which ones aren't?  

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I looked into this sometime ago, and if you want to know more then read this - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services

But it is very clear that just because it is a widebeam boat that you live on does not make it VAT exempt.  The link above is actually very readable for a gov't document.

 

Edited by Chewbacka
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On 27/06/2017 at 11:17, Tony Brooks said:

Be aware that the woodworking on a boat is not as straight forward as on land, especially if if the boat is floating. A spirit level and plumb line are pretty useless because the boat rolls and alters its trim as you move about and in any case the floor is unlikely to be horizontal fore to aft. The sides are also rarely vertical and much of cutting bulkheads etc. requires the use of patterns. Just a warning that land based tradespeople with no experience of boats may find it strange and price accordingly.

 

crossed with Alan

 

Or more accurately, land based tradespeople with no experience of boats may find it strange and feck it up accordingly.

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6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Or more accurately, land based tradespeople with no experience of boats may find it strange and feck it up accordingly.

:D

We've asked a friend who is a land based tradesperson we trust, so any advice you might have for him he will greatly receive. I'm going to work through the forum topics and make a little information pack for him. He's starting his own research too so hopefully the mistakes we inevitably make along the way won't be disastrous ones! 

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10 hours ago, Peppers said:

 

We went to new and used boat company today and they said it would be VAT exempt because we'd be living on it. Tbh they said all widebeams would be VAT exempt if we live aboard. Is this a bit of a myth then? How do you know which ones are ex VAT and which ones aren't?  

This is allegedly one of the companies that has misled / misinformed (lied to ?) customers and has resulted in the buyer coming under an HMRC investigation and becoming liable for huge amounts of cash (£20k) being demanded to b paid 'that day'.

 

Ask any supplier of a widebeam to provide you with HMRC accepted calculation that show it meets the criteria - alternatively

1) Work on the basis that any widebeam is subject to VAT at the standard rate (20%)

2) Enure that any sales contract does not pass on the VAT liability to the buye in the event that HMRCE decide it is not compliant.

3) Keep £20k available for instant payment to the VAT man if he calls.

4) Have boat custom built that has the 'extra-high' gunwhales that will allow it to comply, and get a certificate of compliance.

 

This may help (from the 'Fit Out Pontoon' website:

The HMRC formula for calculating gross tonnage for vessels of less than 24m in length is as follows.

L (m) x B (m) x D (m) x 0.16 (see below for HMRC definitions of L,B & D)
 

vat.jpg


HMRC then go on to specifically define the D measurement for canal boats and this is measured from under the top of what we know as the gunwale to the base plate.

As an interesting example, take ‘Panache’ the widebeam boat featured on our build diary of a huge 69’ long (L) x 11" beam (B) with a height of 46” (D).

Let's work out the calculation by first converting the imperial measurements to metric so we have:

21.03m x 3.35m x 1.16m = 81.35 x 0.16 = 13.01 gross tons… Not a qualifying vessel.

So heres the interesting part in order to get a boat even of this size to qualify the standard (D) measurement would need another 190mm adding giving a (D) measurement of 1.35m. See the revised calculation below:

(21.03m x 3.35m x 1.35) = 95.10 multiplied by 0.16 = 15.21 gross tons, a qualifying ship.
 
So here's the bottom line:
Provided  that the boat is not designed or adapted for recreation or pleasure at the time you buy it and so long as the gross tonnage (L x W x D (from the underside of the back deck, or gunwale if no back deck) x 0.16) works out to be not less than 15 tons the supply of the boat is zero-rated so no VAT. Simple!

Many boat builders are now offering specially designed wide beam craft with higher gunwales that give live-aboard boaters the opportunity for VAT savings.

Misconceptions regarding VAT exempt vessels & residential usage:
There is no legal requirement that a VAT-free vessel be designed as or even used as a residence. Any conditions in HMRC’s Notice 744C (‘Ships, aircraft and associated supplies’) which go further than the statutory provisions are of no legal force. There is no legal justification for imposing an additional condition of permanent residential use.
 

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31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Misconceptions regarding VAT exempt vessels & residential usage:
There is no legal requirement that a VAT-free vessel be designed as or even used as a residence. Any conditions in HMRC’s Notice 744C (‘Ships, aircraft and associated supplies’) which go further than the statutory provisions are of no legal force. There is no legal justification for imposing an additional condition of permanent residential use.
 

Your note about VAT is very important and the OP is being misled, particularly about the significance of living aboard. However a small but important point is that a "qualifying ship" - one that is of a size and design to meet the HMRC criteria - will be charged VAT at ZERO%. It is NOT EXEMPT. There is no practical difference as far as the buyer is concerned as they still pay no VAT, but the Zero c.f. Exempt distinction is very important in accountance terms. If it is Zero rated the buyer will have paid all the tax due, but the tax due was £00.00

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2 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

Your note about VAT is very important and the OP is being misled, particularly about the significance of living aboard. However a small but important point is that a "qualifying ship" - one that is of a size and design to meet the HMRC criteria - will be charged VAT at ZERO%. It is NOT EXEMPT. There is no practical difference as far as the buyer is concerned as they still pay no VAT, but the Zero c.f. Exempt distinction is very important in accountance terms. If it is Zero rated the buyer will have paid all the tax due, but the tax due was £00.00

Indeed, and I hope you noticed that my statement was :

The application of zero-rated VAT requires meeting several criteria - one of which is 'GROSS TONNAGE' of at least 15 Tonnes

Whilst the website I quoted from stated 'exempt vessels'.

 

As you say, it is well worth pointing out to those who are not aware (I have a VAT registered business so I am aware), but again worth repeating that exempt or Zero rated makes no financial difference to the buyer.

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Just as a " for instance " in one small way how a land based " tradesman can mess up boat fitting BIG time is....... He/she turns up on a lovely hot summers day to lets say line out the cabin sides or lets say the deckhead. Being a proficient sort of guy he measures up realy well and buts each 8 by 4 panel up together to make a lovely near seamless smooth finish and screws or pins or whatever thro the panels onto the battons behind..........lubbly jubbly. You go to look at the handiwork next day on a very unseasonably cold day several hours after he has left in blazing sunshine ( like it was last week ) and guess what confronts you :o Dont ask me why I know this to be fact :huh:

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is allegedly one of the companies that has misled / misinformed (lied to ?) customers and has resulted in the buyer coming under an HMRC investigation and becoming liable for huge amounts of cash (£20k) being demanded to b paid 'that day'.

Oh no!! So am I best to stay clear of these sellers then? I've been trying to find out online what the depth is but can't find it anywhere - but would assume it is not 15 gross tons. 

I could definitely do without a HMRC investigation on my hands!!

39 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Just as a " for instance " in one small way how a land based " tradesman can mess up boat fitting BIG time is....... He/she turns up on a lovely hot summers day to lets say line out the cabin sides or lets say the deckhead. Being a proficient sort of guy he measures up realy well and buts each 8 by 4 panel up together to make a lovely near seamless smooth finish and screws or pins or whatever thro the panels onto the battons behind..........lubbly jubbly. You go to look at the handiwork next day on a very unseasonably cold day several hours after he has left in blazing sunshine ( like it was last week ) and guess what confronts you :o Dont ask me why I know this to be fact :huh:

Yeah I was thinking about this...what is the way round it? Is there an allowance calculation one can do? 

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2 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Oh no!! So am I best to stay clear of these sellers then? I've been trying to find out online what the depth is but can't find it anywhere - but would assume it is not 15 gross tons. 

I could definitely do without a HMRC investigation on my hands!!

Yeah I was thinking about this...what is the way round it? Is there an allowance calculation one can do? 

Generaly speaking people leave a small gap which is what I ended up doing the SECOND time after my c--- up and then frame the panels with some sort of nice trim/hardwood where the panels can move without actualy being seen. We will all have heard the large cracking noises boats make on a hot day and later when cooling and contracting. Someone with greater boat fitting knowledge than the one I have fully fitted will probably be along with a better idea.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is allegedly one of the companies that has misled / misinformed (lied to ?) customers and has resulted in the buyer coming under an HMRC investigation and becoming liable for huge amounts of cash (£20k) being demanded to b paid 'that day'.

I just did a sneaky phone call to n&u bc - fake accent and all - and they said the walkround on the gunnel is narrower so the first deck equation is from the roof (hoping I sound like I know what I'm talking about). I'm assuming this would make the depth much greater for calculation purposes. He also said the liability would lie with the retailer and that their boats have been categorised by a surveyor and checked by HMRC. Would this make sense?

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7 minutes ago, Peppers said:

the walkround on the gunnel is narrower

So a gunwhale which is already narrow and difficult to walk along is made even narrower and more dangerous.

I would ask them for written evidence from the HMRC.

I think that having gone to the trouble to produce guidance SPECIFICALLY for narrow/wide boats that they would not be easily conned into where, or where not a gunwhale starts. 

Keep doing the research - they may be turn out to be correct

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17 minutes ago, Peppers said:

 He also said the liability would lie with the retailer and that their boats have been categorised by a surveyor and checked by HMRC. Would this make sense?

I guess that if they will give you a certified VAT invoice saying they have charged VAT @ zero%, and an indemnity to guarantee that in the event that HMRC subsequently dispute the tax rate they will themselves be liable for tax then found due it might make sense.

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13 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

I guess that if they will give you a certified VAT invoice saying they have charged VAT @ zero%, and an indemnity to guarantee that in the event that HMRC subsequently dispute the tax rate they will themselves be liable for tax then found due it might make sense.

"Spot-On"

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