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Controversial widebeam continuous cruiser


Peppers

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So the boat has done 1200 hrs in 3 years, that is only just over an hour a day so if CCing probably needs new batteries, its far from well used.

No cooker, has it got any gas installed, if not so is it a self fit out, if so does it have a RCD cert. 

 

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 I have 2 mud weights that I have never used. I am confident I could lift them out as far as the water surface but I am not sure about getting them back over the side. They are 56lb. I'm also not sure how good they would be at keeping the boat in one place. I think the boat would flop about a bit on the slack in the rope/chain (assuming 1 at each end).

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1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

I am confident I could lift them out as far as the water surface but I am not sure about getting them back over the side.

I have used the same on the middle levels and you are right - they are hard to get back. The are also covered in .......mud!

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7 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Would it make more sense to go for something like:

https://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=490699

or 

https://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=438353

if we're not shy of a bit of work? I'm understanding more now that they're basically the same boat with a different fit out. 

 

Yep I would.

  • Greenie 1
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25 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

This point always makes me laugh too. Why do you think that you have to carry your cassette for a long distance when you dont have to carry a pumpout tank for a long distance?

I did say 'ANY' distance ;) :D.....used pump outs & just prey hose doesn't split...walking 3 ft with a box of effluent & I know what would happen to me....& that is before I have to empty it.

Happy to keep a tank out of sight for miles, as opposed to waving a box of poo about ....just my own opinion, know 50% would go the other. :cheers:

Edited by The Grumpy Triker
Wrong spelling
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1 minute ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

I did say 'ANY' distance ;) :D.....used pump outs & just pray hose doesn't split...walking 3 ft with a box of effluent & I know what would happen to me....& that is before I have to empty it.

Happy to keep a tank out of sight for miles, as opposed to waving a box of poo about ....just my own opinion, know 50% would go the other. :cheers:

What I mean is carrying the cassette from the boat tied up at the elsan point is what I have always done just the same as when I pull up next to a pumpout machine for a holding tank. There is no need to hump the cassette more distance than that.

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1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

What I mean is carrying the cassette from the boat tied up at the elsan point is what I have always done just the same as when I pull up next to a pumpout machine for a holding tank. There is no need to hump the cassette more distance than that.

First hump the cassette up the steps (assuming your bog is not on the roof). Then across to the pooery. Then heave it on to sink. I can't hump that much these days.

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Just now, mrsmelly said:

What I mean is carrying the cassette from the boat tied up at the elsan point is what I have always done just the same as when I pull up next to a pumpout machine for a holding tank. There is no need to hump the cassette more distance than that.

:) I know ...just seen too many people trotting about. Such a black or white topic on here...:cheers:

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3 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Congratulations on reaching 1000!

Blimey I didnt know what you meant at first so had a look round.

1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

First hump the cassette up the steps (assuming your bog is not on the roof). Then across to the pooery. Then heave it on to sink. I can't hump that much these days.

Pooery.....I like that phrase.

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11 minutes ago, Peppers said:

thanks - any other thoughts on newish or used?

Just remember that if you pay for a fitted boat with the intention of ripping it out and doing it another way you are just chucking time and money away and may as well get a sailaway in the first place.

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6 hours ago, Peppers said:

And these are really useful tips (and your fatboat looks a beaut :) ) - are you saying you would have the kitchen and lounge at the stern or not? I think the boat we currently have our eye on has a log burner on the starboard side - is it sensible to move this?

My partners pretty handy and I think we'll soon get a bit of engine maintenance under our belts - I'll want to do a course I think.

If you find the "perfect" boat for yourselves, but the stove is not on the port side don't fret.  The worst that will happen is you loose a chimney or two and maybe a few chimney caps.  It's not a "really" big deal.

As far as layout, some prefer reverse others prefer the traditional.  Ours is traditional, after living on her for 4 years, I wish we had gone for reverse.  Most people enter and leave their boat via the stern, I just can't get him trained to take his boots off once inside the stern doors, so everything gets tracked through the bedroom, down the corridor to the living area of the boat.

As far as loos go, it really is "to each their own", ours is a pump out and I wouldn't have it any other way.  But I respect other folks choose cassette or compost, as they are better suited for their needs and lifestyle.

IMO the boat you had the first link for was fairly overpriced for what you are getting.  Is the gas lines already installed?  Is there a gas storage locker? I am far from being an expert, but I'd think you would need a much larger battery bank and/or a good solar set up.  We have 1000w solar and still need to run the engine each day for an hour or so.  We are pretty enery hungery though to be fair.  Fridge / Freezer, large screen tv and all the other electronics taboot.  Everybody's set up and usage is different, keep that in mind when taking advice. 

Some things are just personal preference.

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1 hour ago, philjw said:

I have used the same on the middle levels and you are right - they are hard to get back. The are also covered in .......mud!

I was then going to say the same thing,also on the Nene, one end attached to the bank the other on a weight

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Next stupid question then - does everything on a boat need to be done by a specific boat fitter or are most things doable by a decent builder? Ie. If we bought a sailaway, I think we'd need some help with the electrics, gas and cladding. We could fit a kitchen and bits like that, but is there anything specific we should know about hiring someone to do bits we feel less confident doing?

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For the gas you need someone certified for marine bottled gas intstallations. I found this hard. Rang a guy who was listed as capable and he told me though he had the qualification he had never used it!

So far as new vs used? iMHO I'd buy a boat that a PO has lovingly fitted out to a good standard. Find someone genuine you can trust. Older cheaper boats are good so long as properly cared for. Still plenty of opportunities to put your own stamp on.  Just my thoughts. 

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With regard to boat electrics most land based sparkies don't have the first clue. Either read up about it on here and elsewhere (and ask as many questions as you like), it's really not difficult, or pay an experienced boat electrician to do it for you. 

Tony B is kind enough to host a very wide-ranging resource on boat electrics here: http://www.tb-training.co.uk/cover.html

Cladding involves battening out, insulating the shell (these days most usually spray foam), then attaching the interior boards to the battens. Much easier to write than do, which is why so many folk buy a lined sailaway. 

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9 hours ago, Peppers said:

I think we'd need some help with the electrics, gas

Gas is 'tricky one' and liveaboard regulations are different to 'leisure use'.

Use an approved gas fitter.

Gas fitter are issued with a 'card' (like a driving licence) and on it are the categories that they are entitled to 'work on', so (or example) you may have 'domestic mains gas', Domestic 'bottled' (LPG) gas Caravan Mains gas, Caravan 'bottled' (LPG) gas, and of course the one you want 'Boat LPG gas'.

Purely as an example in the event of a gas leak :

Caravans have ventilation holes in the floor, Gas is heavier than air, Gas sinks and exits the caravan thru the holes in the floor, breeze disperses the gas - no explosion

Boats (hopefully) do not have holes in the bottom, gas sinks into the bilges, amount builds up over time, until one day there is a spark (maybe from an electrical switch, from the alternator etc etc) and then 'BOOM'

 

GSIUR regulations apply for liveaboards and affect who can do work  the boat, details here :

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/made

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Gas is 'tricky one' and liveaboard regulations are different to 'leisure use'.

Use an approved gas fitter.

Gas fitter are issued with a 'card' (like a driving licence) and on it are the categories that they are entitled to 'work on', so (or example) you may have 'domestic mains gas', Domestic 'bottled' (LPG) gas Caravan Mains gas, Caravan 'bottled' (LPG) gas, and of course the one you want 'Boat LPG gas'.

Purely as an example in the event of a gas leak :

Caravans have ventilation holes in the floor, Gas is heavier than air, Gas sinks and exits the caravan thru the holes in the floor, breeze disperses the gas - no explosion

Boats (hopefully) do not have holes in the bottom, gas sinks into the bilges, amount builds up over time, until one day there is a spark (maybe from an electrical switch, from the alternator etc etc) and then 'BOOM'

 

GSIUR regulations apply for liveaboards and affect who can do work  the boat, details here :

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/made

Quick question slightly off topic re gas instalations. Why do different rules apply to liveaboards and hobby boats? Gas is surely gas and goes BOOM so why and what is different?

Is it ok to blow up hobby boaters but not liveaboards or what? Just askin like.

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3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Quick question slightly off topic re gas instalations. Why do different rules apply to liveaboards and hobby boats? Gas is surely gas and goes BOOM so why and what is different?

Is it ok to blow up hobby boaters but not liveaboards or what? Just askin like.

My guess is that a hobby boater is on average on the boat for less time each year,  therefore the risk of being on board when it goes boom is correspondingly smaller.

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16 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Quick question slightly off topic re gas instalations. Why do different rules apply to liveaboards and hobby boats? Gas is surely gas and goes BOOM so why and what is different?

Is it ok to blow up hobby boaters but not liveaboards or what? Just askin like.

Because (as far as private boaters are concerned) the legislation says it only applies to residential premises.

 

(5) Nothing in these Regulations shall apply in relation to the supply of gas to, or anything done in respect of a gas fitting on—

 

(a)a self-propelled vehicle except when such a vehicle is—

 

(i)hired out in the course of a business; or

 

(ii)made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried on from that vehicle;

 

(b)a sea-going ship;

 

(c)a vessel not requiring a national or international load line certificate except when such vessel is

 

(i)hired out in the course of a business;

 

(ii)made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried out from that vessel; or

 

(iii)used primarily for domestic or residential purposes;

 

It also applies, if, for example you are selling books from your boat, and the 'public' have to step onto your boat to look, buy, pay for them, if, however they view them thru' a window or hatch, you pass the book out to them and they pass you the money, the GSIUR regs do not apply.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Because (as far as private boaters are concerned) the legislation says it only applies to residential premises.

 

(5) Nothing in these Regulations shall apply in relation to the supply of gas to, or anything done in respect of a gas fitting on—

 

(a)a self-propelled vehicle except when such a vehicle is—

 

(i)hired out in the course of a business; or

 

(ii)made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried on from that vehicle;

 

(b)a sea-going ship;

 

(c)a vessel not requiring a national or international load line certificate except when such vessel is

 

(i)hired out in the course of a business;

 

(ii)made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried out from that vessel; or

 

(iii)used primarily for domestic or residential purposes;

 

It also applies, if, for example you are selling books from your boat, and the 'public' have to step onto your boat to look, buy, pay for them, if, however they view them thru' a window or hatch, you pass the book out to them and they pass you the money, the GSIUR regs do not apply.

Cool but exactly what is the difference in the regs? is it amore eronious standard to be achieved on liveaboard boats? its weird to me that there are differing standards in relation to something as serious as gas safety.

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14 hours ago, blackrose said:

Someone may already have mentioned this, but any boat being sold that's less than 5 years old should come with a full RCD declaration of conformity.

Not true.  It must come with full RCD compliance when first placed on the EU market. There is no requirement for a second hand boat to have any RCD documentation whatever whether less than or more than 5 years old. But a good idea to ask for it nonetheless.

18 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Way overpriced for what it is and the low level of kit on it and finish. Perhaps a chancer that will except its true value if offered?

At £80k, and needing a partial refit you may as well buy a new sailaway from Collingwood and fit it out the way you want.

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15 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Cool but exactly what is the difference in the regs? is it amore eronious standard to be achieved on liveaboard boats? its weird to me that there are differing standards in relation to something as serious as gas safety.

I do not know the specifics - just the 'rules'.

Maybe MtB would be prepared to list the differences.

 

I do know that a BSS surveyor/inspector who 'does' many liveaboard boats in our Marina tells owners not to be there when he does the visits, as if they are not there then they are not liveaboards and he cannot test liveaboard boats as he is not registered.

 

From the BSS Examiner notes "Guidance for Conducting Examinations" :

Information received from boat owners and examiners has prompted another reminder for non-Gas Safe registered examiners about your need to keep on the right side of the law. Boats used for residential purposes as well as hire boats and floating businesses (such as cafés or shops) all fall within scope of the Gas Safety [installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR) and as such any LPG 'work' must be undertaken by Gas Safe registered installers.

As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of a screw nipple on a gas tightness test point, so this can include carrying out BSS tightness test in Part 7 of the checking procedures.

Make no mistake, people who are prosecuted and found guilty of contravening the GSIUR, can face fines of up to £5000 for each offence or even jail terms for very serious breaches. The HSE and local authorities are active in pursuing people not complying with the regulations, especially where hazards have arisen.

Any examiner who has been found by the HSE not to have complied with GSIUR and thus also failed to follow the BSS Manager’s guidance in this matter may also have their future authorisation as an Examiner reviewed.

 

If you are not Gas Safe registered, as part of your initial dealings with owners when booking the examination, please try to protect yourself by tackling the issue in advance of turning up at the mooring.

Ask if the boat has a gas system, then find out whether the boat's use will put it in scope.  We suggest the following questions:

  1. Is the boat hired out in the course of a business (This may include timeshare/shared-ownership boats where there is letting involved in some of the timeslots)?
  2. Is the boat used primarily by anyone for domestic or residential purposes (In this matter, it makes no difference to you if it is owner-occupied or rented-out)?
  3. Do you invite people on board your boat in the course of a business, e.g. is it a café or shop?

If the answer to any of the above questions is yes, then in order to carry out the BSS gas tightness test you will either have to use a fitted bubble tester, or observe a Gas Safe registered installer carrying out the test with a manometer. 

Even if the answer to all the questions above is 'no', you are recommended to make a brief record that you have asked the questions and received the negative answers

*NB. Remember that in the event the boat is a hire boat, third-party managed share-owned boat, trip boat, rented residential boat or floating business, you must also have been trained and assessed to the 2002 BSS requirements.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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