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Controversial widebeam continuous cruiser


Peppers

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Hello there,

I'm new to this forum and to boating generally, so please be gentle with me.

My partner and I are on the hunt for a new boat, to live on, in and around London. We aware of the continuous cruising rules and how tricky it can be to maintain accustomed comfort levels as opposed to land living, but we're quite prepared for this. To be honest, we have moved around a great deal and are currently living in a live/work solution next to a waste disposal unit, which is not exactly luxury living either. Personally I've lived in a few "alternative living" settings and see it as another exciting challenge, particularly one that allows one to move around so much. For my partner, he just loves boats and it would be a bit of a dream for him to call one home.

We initially set out thinking we would look for a narrowboat, probably no longer than 50ft but after a fair bit of searching I don't think they offer us enough space. I'm an artist and so would need a 'studio' area as well as our living areas. I'm also currently doing my PhD which means I spend the majority of my time working from home. My partner is a composer and also works from home most of the time, so some extra space means we are less likely to annoy one another if we are working and living in one space together all day every day. As I say, we currently live in a very tiny live/work studio so this is a scenario I know very well. My partner's also a little tall for many of the smaller boats we have been on. 

So - we started to look at widebeams, and have been to see a lovely 60ft x 12ft that I have developed a bit of a soft spot for. We'd need to paint it, black it, put a kitchen in and generally sort out some questionable decorating but I can very much imagine us living and working there really happily. My partner's the one who will be primarily in charge of steering, driving, mooring etc at first - just because he has some experience with boats and I don't, but he's not driven one this big before and is questioning whether it is something we will just get used to or whether it will actually be a pain. He'd like to give it a go, and we've been searching to see if we could hire a widebeam for a day or night or two but at this time of year they all seem to be being enjoyed for holidays.

I know widebeams are not liked by some (hence my title), but beyond personal preference is there any reason why one should not choose them if it better suits their needs? 

One extra thing that we would love to be able to do is travel from London to Milton Keynes and back because my family live in that area and we would love to be able to take the boat as opposed to cycling or the train. I've checked some maps and things that suggest that would be possible in a 60 x 12 boat, but does anyone know anything to the contrary? 

Apologies if there is anything naively incorrect about what I've said. Thank you all so much for your time and help in advance.

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"Driving" a widebeam is as easy as most other boats....with less swaying to the left/right...more stable.......it's only bridges that might need a little more attention.  Click my signature link and it should open an old blog :) 

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10 hours ago, DeanS said:

"Driving" a widebeam is as easy as most other boats....with less swaying to the left/right...more stable.......it's only bridges that might need a little more attention.  Click my signature link and it should open an old blog :) 

Hello Dean,

an old blog, and very good it was too.

I was amazed to see how quick you made this sailaway into a nice home for your familly.

The only thing I never understood is why you repeatedly wrote that you were going to post more pictures soon, but never did.

Of course nobody can oblige you to put up these photos, but there's no need to say several times that you're going to post them, if you don't do it.

Still anyway, I think you did a great job.

 

Peter.

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Thanks so much for sharing your blog Dean, I can't believe how quickly you managed to get all that work done!

It's also a great help to hear that you find the widebeam steam and easy to navigate. I get the sense that once we get the hang of it we won't know any different and will wonder why we were concerned, but all the same it is really comforting to hear of other peoples experiences. 

Any further thoughts greatly appreciated.

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12 hours ago, Peppers said:

My partner and I are on the hunt for a new boat, to live on, in and around London

There are no issues with a 'fat-boat' ( I have one at 14 feet beam and one at 23foot beam), the problem is the location that you have chosen as your 'base'.

London has limited moorings (and you do need a mooing to tie up to at night / for a few days)

Boat congestion is fairly severe with narrowboats already having to moor up 2 or 3 abreast (tied up to each other side by side) an then the outside ones have to walk over the inside one to get to 'land' - a widebeam  takes up twice the space of a narrowboat so further restricts the available mooring space - so, your 'fat-boat' will not only by be 'another boat' added to the already congested waters, but, in effect 'adding two boats'.

 

You both work (primarily) from home so why restrict yourself to a busy, unpleasant,  urban environment.

You could CC or take a mooring further North (maybe Nottingham or Leicester) have beautiful countryside around you and take a train (about an hour or so journey) on the odd occasions you needed to visit London.

 

If, however, the 'plan' is based more around having a 'cheap flat' (that happens to float) in London, rather than enjoying boating and the life aboard, then forget the 'move North' suggestion.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are no issues with a 'fat-boat' ( I have one at 14 feet beam and one at 23foot beam), the problem is the location that you have chosen as your 'base'.

London has limited moorings (and you do need a mooing to tie up to at night / for a few days)

Boat congestion is fairly severe with narrowboats already having to moor up 2 or 3 abreast (tied up to each other side by side) an then the outside ones have to walk over the inside one to get to 'land' - a widebeam  takes up twice the space of a narrowboat so further restricts the available mooring space - so, your 'fat-boat' will not only by be 'another boat' added to the already congested waters, but, in effect 'adding two boats'.

 

You both work (primarily) from home so why restrict yourself to a busy, unpleasant,  urban environment.

You could CC or take a mooring further North (maybe Nottingham or Leicester) have beautiful countryside around you and take a train (about an hour or so journey) on the odd occasions you needed to visit London.

 

If, however, the 'plan' is based more around having a 'cheap flat' (that happens to float) in London, rather than enjoying boating and the life aboard, then forget the 'move North' suggestion.

Hi Alan,

Thank for your suggestion, but we do actually need to remain in the London area. In part because we have family here but also because the vast majority of our work that is not at home is in London (Connor works in theatre mostly which is usually London based, and I'm a university lecturer too). It's not the cheap flat option, although I don't think this is necessarily a negative for those who do make that choice, but rather a different way of experiencing the city we love whilst taking up a lifestyle we think we'll enjoy.

I know the areas around Stratford/Hackney/Kings Cross and Little Venice are particularly congested and to be honest I'd quite happily just keep going on past these if we can't ever find mooring space there. The boat we've taken a particular liking to is already based in London, so hopefully we wouldn't be so much adding another two boats to the water as much as just replacing the two people aboard. 

I love fat-boat - much friendlier :)

With regards to mooring are there particular maps which show exactly where you can and cannot moor? Just because I frequently see spaces on the London canals and wonder why they are empty when all I ever read is about how the canals here are so congested? I'm always looking for parking space signs or something, but I don't think it probably works like that?!

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4 minutes ago, Peppers said:

I frequently see spaces on the London canals and wonder why they are empty when all I ever read is about how the canals here are so congested?

One of the big 'issues' is that the towpaths are being concreted / tarmac  and 'THEY' are not installing mooring rings, so, as you can now no longer knock in mooring pins, and you have no rings to tie up to that stretch is now no longer available to use for mooring.

As the 'cycling paths' and tow-path upgrades continue the mooring options will get less and less.

 

I'd suggest that you join the London Boaters facebook page where you will be able to get updated information - I've not been to London for some time.

(Rumour has it that you can co-ordinate your 'moving date' such that you arrange for another boater to move on the same day / time and you just 'swap places' and hope that no-one else jumps in whilst you are both on the move - it could be, for example that at 10:30am every second Thursday, every boat in London is 'on the move' to a new mooring 'spot')

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12 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Hi Alan,

Thank for your suggestion, but we do actually need to remain in the London area. In part because we have family here but also because the vast majority of our work that is not at home is in London (Connor works in theatre mostly which is usually London based, and I'm a university lecturer too). It's not the cheap flat option, although I don't think this is necessarily a negative for those who do make that choice, but rather a different way of experiencing the city we love whilst taking up a lifestyle we think we'll enjoy.

I know the areas around Stratford/Hackney/Kings Cross and Little Venice are particularly congested and to be honest I'd quite happily just keep going on past these if we can't ever find mooring space there. The boat we've taken a particular liking to is already based in London, so hopefully we wouldn't be so much adding another two boats to the water as much as just replacing the two people aboard. 

I love fat-boat - much friendlier :)

With regards to mooring are there particular maps which show exactly where you can and cannot moor? Just because I frequently see spaces on the London canals and wonder why they are empty when all I ever read is about how the canals here are so congested? I'm always looking for parking space signs or something, but I don't think it probably works like that?!

My twopenneth

As for having to live in/around London you have my sincere condolences, I would not live there boat/boatless for all the tea in China. Having said that I also believe a fat boat is too big for the small waterways such as the G/u and others with their congestion and the north is VASTLY better suited. Having said all that a Fat Boat is MUCH MUCH comfier to live aboard and a much better boat to handle and for stability, narrowboats as the name gives away are too skinny to make good boating but are popular due to their go more places capability. Having lived on both the difference is immense and if you can put up with the small waterways and problems that may give you then a Fat boat is the way to go.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

One of the big 'issues' is that the towpaths are being concreted / tarmac  and 'THEY' are not installing mooring rings, so, as you can now no longer knock in mooring pins, and you have no rings to tie up to that stretch is now no longer available to use for mooring.

As the 'cycling paths' and tow-path upgrades continue the mooring options will get less and less.

Ahh ok - so wherever there are mooring rings you could potentially moor? 

And also - what's the ettiequte with mooring up alongside someone else? Do you ask their permission first - what would happen if they are not home? How do you attract their attention in the first place? These are stupid questions I'm sure!

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5 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Having said that I also believe a fat boat is too big for the small waterways such as the G/u and others with their congestion and the north is VASTLY better suited. 

Do you think we'd have a problem on the GU going from London to Milton Keynes in a fat boat then?

6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Having said all that a Fat Boat is MUCH MUCH comfier to live aboard and a much better boat to handle and for stability, narrowboats as the name gives away are too skinny to make good boating but are popular due to their go more places capability. 

Knowing about the handle and stability is very welcome to hear too as we'd got it in our heads it could be the complete opposite way around!

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6 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Ahh ok - so wherever there are mooring rings you could potentially moor?

Pretty much - yes. Unless they are private moorings, for the use of (say) a ferry, or permanent moorings (that someone pays for). They will generally be 'signed' as no-mooring.

7 minutes ago, Peppers said:

And also - what's the ettiequte with mooring up alongside someone else? Do you ask their permission first - what would happen if they are not home? How do you attract their attention in the first place? These are stupid questions I'm sure!

It is generally accepted (in London) that you will need to 'breast-up' moor alongside), but the etiquette is

1) To ask

2) If no one is in just do it and ask when they come 'home'

3) Do not moor a 'big boat' on the outside of a small boat

4) Take your lines to the 'shore', don't rely on tying up ONLY to the boat you are mooring against.

 

You will get all sorts of arguments from boaters why they don't want you to moor against them, from "I'm leaving at 5:00am and don't want to disturb you when I go, to My dog has got claustrophobia and cannot stand having a boat tied up - when that happens its not worth the hassle - just move on.

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6 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Do you think we'd have a problem on the GU going from London to Milton Keynes in a fat boat then?

Knowing about the handle and stability is very welcome to hear too as we'd got it in our heads it could be the complete opposite way around!

The GU from London to M/K is getting more and more congested and is better suited to narrowboats but not impossible. Fat narrowboats are easier to handle than similar sized narrow beam craft and make living aboard an even greater pleasure. The problem on this forum is most but not all are narrowboaters many of which will comment on something they have never even been aboard let alone lived on but in fairness the proliferation of Fat boats in the wrong place is getting to be a problem.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is generally accepted (in London) that you will need to 'breast-up' moor alongside), but the etiquette is

1) To ask

2) If no one is in just do it and ask when they come 'home'

3) Do not moor a 'big boat' on the outside of a small boat

4) Take your lines to the 'shore', don't rely on tying up ONLY to the boat you are mooring against.

 

You will get all sorts of arguments from boaters why they don't want you to moor against them, from "I'm leaving at 5:00am and don't want to disturb you when I go, to My dog has got claustrophobia and cannot stand having a boat tied up - when that happens its not worth the hassle - just move on.

Great this is such a help! 

Undoubtedly we will be far too scared to do this for the first few months of our boat ownership anyway at the risk of offending anyone and being ostracised from the entire boating community. We've fully prepared ourselves that our politeness and anxiety about incorrect etiquette will mean we spend most of our first few months saying sorry to anyone we see while we float around the very outskirts of London continuously searching for moorings, but hey ho

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post-20365-0-40196000-1463453252_thumb.jpgpost-20365-0-25784400-1464033633_thumb.jpgHi Peppers and welcome to the forum.  There are a "few" of us on this forum who have widebeams, not many, but a few.

Ours is our first canal boat, so I really can't tell you if it's easier or harder to handle than a narrow boat, but I can tell you we have no problems in cruising.  Ours is a 57 x 10.10 with a trad stern which gives us more internal space, a very generous main bedroom and a good size spare as well the bathroom, large galley and good size lounge.  After living on ours for 4 years now, the only thing I'd have different if we were looking to replace it would be:

1) reverse layout (galley & lounge at the stern of the boat)

2) soild fuel (coal/wood) stove on the left (port) side of the boat...this really should be a no brainer, but as novices we didn't understand the difference and bought a boat with it on the right hand (starboard) side

3) I prefer a U shaped galley rather than the L shape I have, more efficient use of space.

We've cruised the GU, K&A, Thames, Paddington & Regent canals & the rivers Lee & Stort.  We've always been able to find a spot to moor and only once did we need to double (breast up) moor and that was at Wallingford on the Thames during the peak season. 

We went through London a couple of years ago, and had no problems with finding a place to single moor.  To be honest, there aren't many spots in London I'd be comfortable to double moor our boat, I'd feel we would just cause too much of a obstacle especially to other widebeams.

I don't envy you living on a boat in London, I wouldn't want to do it, but others do.  Just make sure you fully understand what is expected of your movements by CRT as a cc'er.  I'd also recommend that either you or your partner have a decent grasp of diesle engine maintenance, battery managment & electrics. 

Best of luck in your search.

*when looking at boats, we found you get a lot more for you money the further north you go.  If our boat had been in London when we bought it, it would have sold easily for 15 -20K more than what we paid for it in Chorley.  Ours had one previous owner, the engine hours were ridiculously low, it hadn't even been broken in :)

 

Edited by Bettie Boo
added a couple of pics
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26 minutes ago, Bettie Boo said:

post-20365-0-40196000-1463453252_thumb.jpgpost-20365-0-25784400-1464033633_thumb.jpgHi Peppers and welcome to the forum.  There are a "few" of us on this forum who have widebeams, not many, but a few.

Ours is our first canal boat, so I really can't tell you if it's easier or harder to handle than a narrow boat, but I can tell you we have no problems in cruising.  Ours is a 57 x 10.10 with a trad stern which gives us more internal space, a very generous main bedroom and a good size spare as well the bathroom, large galley and good size lounge.  After living on ours for 4 years now, the only thing I'd have different if we were looking to replace it would be:

1) reverse layout (galley & lounge at the stern of the boat)

2) soild fuel (coal/wood) stove on the left (port) side of the boat...this really should be a no brainer, but as novices we didn't understand the difference and bought a boat with it on the right hand (starboard) side

3) I prefer a U shaped galley rather than the L shape I have, more efficient use of space.

We've cruised the GU, K&A, Thames, Paddington & Regent canals & the rivers Lee & Stort.  We've always been able to find a spot to moor and only once did we need to double (breast up) moor and that was at Wallingford on the Thames during the peak season. 

We went through London a couple of years ago, and had no problems with finding a place to single moor.  To be honest, there aren't many spots in London I'd be comfortable to double moor our boat, I'd feel we would just cause too much of a obstacle especially to other widebeams.

I don't envy you living on a boat in London, I wouldn't want to do it, but others do.  Just make sure you fully understand what is expected of your movements by CRT as a cc'er.  I'd also recommend that either you or your partner have a decent grasp of diesle engine maintenance, battery managment & electrics. 

Best of luck in your search.

*when looking at boats, we found you get a lot more for you money the further north you go.  If our boat had been in London when we bought it, it would have sold easily for 15 -20K more than what we paid for it in Chorley.  Ours had one previous owner, the engine hours were ridiculously low, it hadn't even been broken in :)

 

Why is the stove to starboard an issue?

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1 hour ago, rgreg said:

Why is the stove to starboard an issue?

In 4 years we've lost at least 2 chimney's and 4 caps by needing to navigate into overhanging trees do to oncoming boats who like a little too much of the centre of the cut and/or meeting another widebeam (if it's one of the really big ones)   :)

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6 hours ago, Peppers said:

Hi Alan,

Thank for your suggestion, but we do actually need to remain in the London area. In part because we have family here but also because the vast majority of our work that is not at home is in London (Connor works in theatre mostly which is usually London based, and I'm a university lecturer too). It's not the cheap flat option, although I don't think this is necessarily a negative for those who do make that choice, but rather a different way of experiencing the city we love whilst taking up a lifestyle we think we'll enjoy.

I know the areas around Stratford/Hackney/Kings Cross and Little Venice are particularly congested and to be honest I'd quite happily just keep going on past these if we can't ever find mooring space there. The boat we've taken a particular liking to is already based in London, so hopefully we wouldn't be so much adding another two boats to the water as much as just replacing the two people aboard. 

I love fat-boat - much friendlier :)

With regards to mooring are there particular maps which show exactly where you can and cannot moor? Just because I frequently see spaces on the London canals and wonder why they are empty when all I ever read is about how the canals here are so congested? I'm always looking for parking space signs or something, but I don't think it probably works like that?!

The London Boaters Facebook page is a wonderful community of resources on living around London and how to do it in a sustainable way (services, moving, mooring etc). Certainly a range of the top end of the Lea to Milton Keynes is a very popular cruising range and well manageable by a couple on a widebeam. If you do go to London Boaters, try and strike up a conversation with Jess Good, she'll tell it exactly how it is (some good, some bad). 

I think if you're into London and off-grid(dish) living it's a wonderful lifestyle and the community second to none. It's making your place in that community that's the key to joy or misery.

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Widebeams are great, ours is 58ft by 10ft and  no problem to cruise and moor, you will soon get the knack. We both cruise single handed when necessary, it's not an issue.

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I've travelled from London to MK on the GU. Some narrow bridges that must be tight for a fat boat, but you will be ok. For me I'll stay narrow. Some of the best canals for scenery  , wildlife and peacefulness are narrow boats only I'm afraid  

 

 

Edited by Jak
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I've taken my widebeam (57' x 12') through London several times. It's not the boat that's the problem, it's the location. I had a mooring at Brentford for 5 years and that was great for access to the Thames, but I wouldn't fancy CCing in London on any size of boat these days. It's not just finding moorings that's the issue, it's competing with others for water points too.

 

A rare mooring at Paddington.

P1000322.JPG

 

Bottom of the Hanwell flight. As far as chimneys on widebeams are concerned, why not put the stove in the middle? I can see the problem on a NB but not on a WB. My chimney is a metre high so it's obviously removed before I go anywhere but a shorter chimney might not need to be. 

P1000320.JPG

Edited by blackrose
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Thank you all so much for your time and help!

On 23 June 2017 at 20:00, Meanderingviking said:

Widebeams are great, ours is 58ft by 10ft and  no problem to cruise and moor, you will soon get the knack. We both cruise single handed when necessary, it's not an issue.

This is a great comfort to hear! Far different to so many of the scare stories I've already been told suggesting it would be completely impossible.

On 23 June 2017 at 18:54, hounddog said:

The London Boaters Facebook page is a wonderful community of resources on living around London and how to do it in a sustainable way (services, moving, mooring etc). Certainly a range of the top end of the Lea to Milton Keynes is a very popular cruising range and well manageable by a couple on a widebeam. If you do go to London Boaters, try and strike up a conversation with Jess Good, she'll tell it exactly how it is (some good, some bad). 

I think if you're into London and off-grid(dish) living it's a wonderful lifestyle and the community second to none. It's making your place in that community that's the key to joy or misery.

And this is so helpful, thank you so much. I'm a so-far silent member of London Boaters on Facebook and it seems full of very usefully information - and the occasional argument! I'll contact Jess Good for sure :) 

 

On 23 June 2017 at 16:24, Bettie Boo said:

post-20365-0-40196000-1463453252_thumb.jpgpost-20365-0-25784400-1464033633_thumb.jpgHi Peppers and welcome to the forum.  There are a "few" of us on this forum who have widebeams, not many, but a few.

Ours is our first canal boat, so I really can't tell you if it's easier or harder to handle than a narrow boat, but I can tell you we have no problems in cruising.  Ours is a 57 x 10.10 with a trad stern which gives us more internal space, a very generous main bedroom and a good size spare as well the bathroom, large galley and good size lounge.  After living on ours for 4 years now, the only thing I'd have different if we were looking to replace it would be:

1) reverse layout (galley & lounge at the stern of the boat)

2) soild fuel (coal/wood) stove on the left (port) side of the boat...this really should be a no brainer, but as novices we didn't understand the difference and bought a boat with it on the right hand (starboard) side

3) I prefer a U shaped galley rather than the L shape I have, more efficient use of space.

 

And these are really useful tips (and your fatboat looks a beaut :) ) - are you saying you would have the kitchen and lounge at the stern or not? I think the boat we currently have our eye on has a log burner on the starboard side - is it sensible to move this?

My partners pretty handy and I think we'll soon get a bit of engine maintenance under our belts - I'll want to do a course I think.

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In fact - this is the one we're currently eyeing up if anyone would mind taking a look? There are only two pics which isn't helpful so it might be impossible to get a sense of...we will hopefully go and see it again next week and I can take some more pics if people could suggest which ones might be the right ones to take?

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=466442

As I said before it needs blacking, and exterior painting. I know thats an expensive job, but we know an artist who paints murals etc for a living, so although we won't be having anything like that he's pretty good outdoors in difficult places with a paintbrush. The interior is just sort of bare at the minute, which we like as its a bit of a clean slate - although there is a log burner on the right hand side. There basically isn't a kitchen, just a worktop, but we could put that in and just get someone decent to fit an oven/hob.

Any initial alarm bells for anyone? 

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17 minutes ago, Peppers said:

Any initial alarm bells for anyone

Not cheap will probably cost £10k+ to finish.

Ignore the fact it has insurance and a C&RT licence as both will be cancelled on sale and you will need to take out your own (allow another £1000)

Primer paint is NORMALLY hydroscopic (absorbs water from the air), if it is, and you paint on top of it the paint will not take, or last very long. Suggest you have a 'proper boat painter' look at it before spending money - it may need removing and re-doing. A full professional paint job for a Narrowboat is £5-£7000 so 50% (???) more for a fat-boat ?

Unless you can patch up any 'chimney hole' in the roof (to a good standard) I wouldn't bother too much about moving the fire - ideally it should be on the Port side but its not the end of the world.

 

Certainly looks a good 'base' to develop it as you wish and as time and budget allow

 

Edit to add :

Will you be removing that 'orrible toilet and putting a proper one (cassette) in ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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19 minutes ago, Peppers said:

In fact - this is the one we're currently eyeing up if anyone would mind taking a look? There are only two pics which isn't helpful so it might be impossible to get a sense of...we will hopefully go and see it again next week and I can take some more pics if people could suggest which ones might be the right ones to take?

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=466442

As I said before it needs blacking, and exterior painting. I know thats an expensive job, but we know an artist who paints murals etc for a living, so although we won't be having anything like that he's pretty good outdoors in difficult places with a paintbrush. The interior is just sort of bare at the minute, which we like as its a bit of a clean slate - although there is a log burner on the right hand side. There basically isn't a kitchen, just a worktop, but we could put that in and just get someone decent to fit an oven/hob.

Any initial alarm bells for anyone? 

Way overpriced for what it is and the low level of kit on it and finish. Perhaps a chancer that will except its true value if offered?

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