Bilge pumps and Bilges

[Dr Bob]

Having bought our first Narrow boat, we are about to get it back from a re-fit and get crusing. A question on bilges and the need for an emergency bilge pump. On our previous sailing yacht we had a spare 'gulper' type electric pump with a long lead and crocodile clips that could be deployed anywhere over the boat and a big portable manual bilge pump in addition to the mandatory manual bilge pump installed in the cockpit. There was risk of getting holed or an exterior skin fitting breaking in the middle of Biscay - hence the need for such safety provisions, but it strikes me that springing a leak in the cut may not have quite the life threatening outcomes of an ocean vessel, nevertheless it will be expensive and a total loss a bit of a crisis!

What provisions for this do you all have? It seems like there is a small bilge pump with a float switch in the engine bay that would deal with a 'bit' of water but I am thinking that I need a big manual pump that can handle a fast ingress of water and also a portable electric one that can be used on a medium size leak ie if the prop gland develops a fast leak that cannot be easily stopped.

On a related point, whilst it's easy to see the engine bilge (cruiser stern) I have not yet in my limited time on the boat discovered if it is possible to see the bilge under the cabin. I guess I will have to generate an inspection hatch if there isnt already one there, but are the bilges normally set up that water will flow all the way back to the engine bilge or are there bulkheads that separate the various parts of the boat and dont allow water to move from part to part. There will certainly be less chance of water ingress over the length of the boat compared to my plastic boat where the keel, underwater skin fittings and the chance of hitting a container are all weak points but then no danger of the bow being flooded in a lock.

Apologies in advance for the dumb question!

 

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

What provisions for this do you all have?

A bucket 

[rusty69]

13 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

are the bilges normally set up that water will flow all the way back to the engine bilge or are there bulkheads that separate the various parts of the boat and dont allow water to move from part to part.

If you have partitions, they should have limber holes to allow free movement of water to the lowest point, usually at the stern(ours hasn't) 

[mross]

Just about the only time narrowboats sink is when they get 'hung up' in a lock.  No bilge pump could prevent this.  Large holes in the hull are very rare.  Occasionally, a boat might sink at its moorings but this takes a  long time.  Most, if not all, skin fittings are above the waterline.  Narrowboats don't heel as they go around corners.  

[Scholar Gypsy]

My bilges are in three sections, isolated from each other

1) Cabin, which drain to an inspection hatch at the stern of the cabin. Normally bone dry unless the water system springs a leak

2) Engine, which sometimes has a mixture of diesel, antifreeze and oil. If I am feeling excessively keen, I can get it bone dry.

3) Stern, which sits under the stern tube. I put the bilge pump in a plastic container that catches any drips.

1) and 3) can be emptied straight into the canal. 2) should not be, for obvious reasons.

[LadyG]

52 minutes ago, mross said:

Just about the only time narrowboats sink is when they get 'hung up' in a lock.  No bilge pump could prevent this.  Large holes in the hull are very rare.  Occasionally, a boat might sink at its moorings but this takes a  long time.  Most, if not all, skin fittings are above the waterline.  Narrowboats don't heel as they go around corners.  

wot, not even at 4mph?

I was wondering about gas, as I always used the hand pump , drawing from the lowest point in the boat, to extract gas.

I assume that one should load the boat to ensure the stern is always down. But I prefer to use something which is non electric as if the boat has been left for a long time the possibliity of a pocket of gas accumulating is greater than if it is being pumped out every day. 

I think there was an explosion of a RYA owned training boat quite a few years ago, and they were cutting edge with safety technology, but gas did escape, accumulate, and  explode.

Edited June 12, 2017 by LadyG
asking yet another Q

[Pie Eater]

Our Liverpool boat has bilge pump below the stern gland. It has an automatic setting which seems to activate when water is a few inches deep and a manual setting which we use at the end of a days sailing.

[mross]

Ladyg, do you suffer from excess gas?

[Scholar Gypsy]

33 minutes ago, LadyG said:

wot, not even at 4mph?

 

1 hour ago, mross said:

Just about the only time narrowboats sink is when they get 'hung up' in a lock.  No bilge pump could prevent this.  Large holes in the hull are very rare.  Occasionally, a boat might sink at its moorings but this takes a  long time.  Most, if not all, skin fittings are above the waterline.  Narrowboats don't heel as they go around corners.  

 

12 degree heel here. We were going in a straight line. The exhaust stayed above the waterline.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

12 degree heel here. We were going in a straight line. The exhaust stayed above the waterline.

Did you manage to miss that protractor? 

[Scholar Gypsy]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Did you manage to miss that protractor? 

Yes, as you can see the wind was coming from about 2-oclock, on the starboard bow.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

Did you manage to miss that protractor? 

Super photo, whats that very unusual flag set amidships? Is there flag etiquette particular to narrow boats [I;d use the generic term "barges" but seems to offend  some folks on here. 

~

56 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

Yes, as you can see the wind was coming from about 2-oclock, on the starboard bow.

Would that be 5 points on the starboard bow lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_of_the_compass#32_cardinal_points

Edited June 12, 2017 by LadyG

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Super photo, whats that very unusual flag set amidships? Is their flag etiquette particular to narrow boats [I;d use the generic term "barges" but seems to offend  some folks on here. 

~

Your asking the wrong person. Looks like a upside down tepee to me

[Scholar Gypsy]

It's the flag issued to all those lucky enough to take part in the Diamond Jubilee pageant in 2012. 40 narrowboats in total (actually three of them were barges, but never mind!).

We were crossing the Wash, and didn't see a single boat all day.

I think I am breaking several flag etiquette rules, in particular having the Red Ensign in front of me rather than on the transom. They don't really belong on narrowboats, but never mind!

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Your asking the wrong person. Looks like a upside down tepee to me

Looks like a diamond to me!

[Tony Brooks]

Electric bilge pump in the rear bilge that is totally isolated from the cabin bilge. Nothing in the engine drip tray. The only water you get into a well designed rear bilge is from the sterngland but my cruiser stern also fills with rain.

A trap at the back of the living area juts in front of the rear bulkhead and a sponge to dry it out - only needed in winter.

I do have a "stirrup pump" type manual bilge pump but never use it and think a bucket would be faster.

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

If you have partitions, they should have limber holes to allow free movement of water to the lowest point, usually at the stern(ours hasn't) 

Ah....that's what I was wondering. Must have a look to see if ours has holes. Obviously a lot simpler if the water flows to the back (assuming it is lower in the water).

Lot's to learn about the new boat.

Thanks everyone else. SWMBO instructed me to get a narrow boat that doesnt heel. She was fed up of living at 30degrees. I think we will keep away from Estuaries.

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Electric bilge pump in the rear bilge that is totally isolated from the cabin bilge. Nothing in the engine drip tray. The only water you get into a well designed rear bilge is from the sterngland but my cruiser stern also fills with rain.

A trap at the back of the living area juts in front of the rear bulkhead and a sponge to dry it out - only needed in winter.

I do have a "stirrup pump" type manual bilge pump but never use it and think a bucket would be faster.

I laughed when Rusty said 'a bucket' but it sounds a lot cheaper than buying a pump.

A bucket and sponge then!

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Ah....that's what I was wondering. Must have a look to see if ours has holes. Obviously a lot simpler if the water flows to the back (assuming it is lower in the water).

Lot's to learn about the new boat.

Thanks everyone else. SWMBO instructed me to get a narrow boat that doesnt heel. She was fed up of living at 30degrees. I think we will keep away from Estuaries.

If you are lucky the ballast will be slightly raised so as not to impede any water flow. 

[mross]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

wot, not even at 4mph?

I was wondering about gas, as I always used the hand pump , drawing from the lowest point in the boat, to extract gas.

I assume that one should load the boat to ensure the stern is always down. But I prefer to use something which is non electric as if the boat has been left for a long time the possibliity of a pocket of gas accumulating is greater than if it is being pumped out every day. 

I

You must be joking!  On a narrow boat, the gas has to be stored in a locker that is self draining and external to the accommodation and engine bay.  The gas pipework has to be proven gas tight during the BSS inspection.  If you are in the habit of pumping out a gas accumulation in your bilges please stay away from other boaters!  Please remove all batteries and never go on shore power.

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, mross said:

You must be joking!  On a narrow boat, the gas has to be stored in a locker that is self draining and external to the accommodation and engine bay.  The gas pipework has to be proven gas tight during the BSS inspection.  If you are in the habit of pumping out a gas accumulation in your bilges please stay away from other boaters!  Please remove all batteries and never go on shore power.

Its wot they call precautionary,  no matter what safety gadgets are applied, accidents happen, and in the case of the RYA yacht for example, they omitted the daily manual pump out as they had all automatic pumps, all safety things to highest spec.

A few years ago this accident happened

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/5398454.Sailor_sues_MOD_after_yacht_blast/?ref=arc

Gas from the oven which is not burnt will accumulate, or some other circumstance will cause freak accidents. I just prefer a manual back up wherever possible.

I went on a RYA exam course, quite high level, we had to prepare the boat for offshore cruising, then we got our briefing, at which point [kettle on], it was discovered there was no gas in the bottle [ Sunsail!], after 5pm it is impossible to buy gas on the Solent, fortunately we were able to borrow a bottle plus regulator, and off we went for our trial by ducking stool.

Edited June 12, 2017 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

If you have partitions, they should have limber holes to allow free movement of water to the lowest point, usually at the stern(ours hasn't) 

I am going to disagree with this statement. On sea and rive boats yes but modern narrowboats are so waterproof often no water gets into the accommodation bilge. In fact some boat fitters do not even bother t fit an accommodation bilge inspection hatch although I think doing that is gross bad practice.

Narrowboats are pretty much one off so you can not be sure what you have. Early ones with a sunken well deck did drain everything back into the engine bilge so would have limber holes. Some builders fitted two steel pipes from the well deck bilge to engine bilge so the.cabin bilge could stay dry. Other boats drained their shows directly into the bilge so again limber holes are needed.

Modern boats with high level self draining well decks typically do not have limber holes in the rear bulkhead while other boats do not have a rear bulkhead that goes down to the baseplate.

There is no hard and fast rule. I think that you need to inspect each boat to see what you have.

 

[OldGoat]

A properly designed NB makes it very difficult to get water into the accommodation area in normal use. A the bow (or pointy end), there is usually a beam across proud of the foredeck that stops water coming in. Similarly at the stern - if it's a trad style, so you are protected from leaky lock gates and tiddles from leaky lock walls.

Apart from a major incident you shouldn't need a massive bilge pump. NBs don't usually do lee rail under....

[rusty69]

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am going to disagree with this statement

I'm happy, as always to be corrected. However I would have thought limber holes a sensible addition to any boat with internal plumbing and less than perfect insulation. 

 

[mross]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Its wot they call precautionary,  no matter what safety gadgets are applied, accidents happen, and in the case of the RYA yacht for example, they omitted the daily manual pump out as they had all automatic pumps, all safety things to highest spec.

A few years ago this accident happened

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/5398454.Sailor_sues_MOD_after_yacht_blast/?ref=arc

Gas from the oven which is not burnt will accumulate, or some other circumstance will cause freak accidents

Ladyg, you have finally proved your critics correct.  Instead of pumping bilges to avoid an accumulation of gas you should ensure that all gas appliances have working flame-failure devices.  Unless you run your bilge pump 24/7 your method of avoiding explosions is daft.  You need to be confident that all pipework is 100% gas tight. I really did not want to join the legions who criticise you but you ongoing arrogance is staggering.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Its wot they call precautionsary,  no matter what safety gadgets are applied, accidents happen, and in the case of the RYA yacht for example, they omitted the daily manual pump out as they had all automatic pumps, safety things to highest spec.

A few years ago this accident happened

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/5398454.Sailor_sues_MOD_after_yacht_blast/?ref=arc

You are absolutely right but note that a gas bottle had been leaking. As Mross said on a narrowboat or any other inland boat it would be mandatory to store it in the overboard vented gas locker/tank. Some idiots do store gas and other volatile liquids in places other than a gas tank but even so The number of explosions on diesel powered narrowboats are remarkably few. I think it is a combination of the strict requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme, the four yearly inspections and gas tightness tests, plus the rigidity of a typical narrowboat that stresses  the ga spipesa nd any joints less than on a wooden or GRP boat.

Some narrowboats have a gas alarm in the accommodation  bilge unless its a wet bilge and if it goes off a pump or bucket would be a good way to get rid of it.

[WotEver]

24 minutes ago, LadyG said:

A few years ago this accident happened

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/5398454.Sailor_sues_MOD_after_yacht_blast/?ref=arc

Which couldn't happen on a narrowboat with a BSC.