White smoke and dead batteries

[purple8]

So..

for the last few days our engine has been kicking out white fumes from the exhaust and seeming much noisier from it too. So thinking it could be water in the fuel I drained both fuel filters and continued on our way. The smoke returned 15mins into cruising and even spat out a little black when going astern into the locks. So We gave her a rest. By the morning our starter battery didn't have enough charge to turn over the engine and we had to charge it from our genny. Even tho we have the starter isolated all the time when not running? The battery isolator is new from amazon? But we remove the key so surely that cannot drain it?

today we charged the starter off the genny and eventually got her started. She blew white smoke for the hour and a half cruise to bedwyn and we stopped. We decided we could try checking the valve clearances, not easy as we couldn't find the tdc for each valve. But then after only 2 hours moored the engine again wouldn't tick over! And each time the key turned in the ignition you could watch the battery voltage dropping on the starter and even on the leisure battery readers.

we are baffled! I am guessing they are two separate issues, the smoke and the batteries draining. But it feels so coincidental to all happen at once.

any advice or ideas would be great. Or anyone near bedwyn on the k&a willing to help would be great too!

[Alan de Enfield]

If you isolate the starter battery (after starting) then it cannot recharge, after a few 'starts' it will no longer has enough to turn the engine over.

Leave it connected at all times.

[purple8]

I know... We are only isolating the battery when we stop, once we turn the engine off, just as a precaution so the interior of the boat doesn't drain it and also as a safety switch. When cruising and after starting it is always obviously connected

[Bee]

What engine is this? A bit of black smoke when going astern can be quite normal, if you think about it the engine has to rotate the prop against the flow of water so it puts a heavier load on the engine. White smoke? first thing I'd look at is the injection pump clamp bolts or whatever fixes it just to see if the pump has rotated slightly and retarded. Others will be along with more experience soon I expect.

[nicknorman]

There are about as many ways to wire a boat as there are boats, however many boats have a split charge relay that connects the engine battery and domestic batteries together when the engine is running, and disconnects them when the engine stops. The relay may be fitted before or after the isolator. So perhaps the relay has stuck closed (plenty of relays seem under-specified and thus overheat and weld their contacts together) such the the domestic and engine batteries remain connected together even with the engine isolator open. You will need to get a multimeter to check what is actually going on - electricity is invisible!

With regard to the white smoke, what sort of cooling system do you have? If it is a normal skin tank, I'd check the header tank to see if the level has dropped and/or bubbles emanate from it when the engine is revved. Either of which point to a faulty head gasket. 

[MtB]

Sounds horribly to me as though you have a bearing picking up and seizing the engine. Can you turn it over manually?

What engine is it?

[purple8]

its a vetus m3.09. The smoke was never there for 6 months prior so I know its not just normal going into the locks

 

hmmm... I thought my battery had the isolator because it didnt have a split charge relay. Im pretty sure it doesnt n e way.

[purple8]

the engine turns manually... Although it is hard with only an adjustable wrench

[WotEver]

12 minutes ago, purple8 said:

I thought my battery had the isolator because it didnt have a split charge relay. Im pretty sure it doesnt n e way.

No, it has an isolator to... isolate the battery

You may or may not have a split charge relay, only tracing the wiring can tell you. 

[purple8]

6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

No, it has an isolator to... isolate the battery

You may or may not have a split charge relay, only tracing the wiring can tell you. 

nah, there is no split charge relay... Also the leisure and starter are charged off separate alternators when/if the engine runs.

[WotEver]

Just now, purple8 said:

nah, there is no split charge relay... Also the leisure and starter are charged off separate alternators when/if the engine runs.

In that case there is no point whatsoever in isolating the battery. 

Has the engine battery alternator partially seized? That would account for the flat battery and would also make the engine work very hard but I'd have thought you'd also hear a load of belt squeal so probably not. 

[purple8]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

In that case there is no point whatsoever in isolating the battery. 

Has the engine battery alternator partially seized? That would account for the flat battery and would also make the engine work very hard but I'd have thought you'd also hear a load of belt squeal so probably not. 

how would I check if its seized?

 

[bizzard]

If the engines alternator is driven by the same belt as the engine water pump and has broken, it might-would account for both problems.

[purple8]

to confuse things more...

I have done a multimeter test on the starter batt and got a reading of 12.6v...

[Tony Brooks]

Isolator new from that well known quality marine retailer Amazon!

It would not account for the smoke unless it takes a lot of cranking to get it started and would not account for some of the other symptoms but I would temporal put both isolator terminals on one stud. If that cures the starting get a quality isolating switch.

It does sound horribly like a fairly major engine problem like a partial seizure or head gasket though.

To check valve clearances on ANY engine, especially 3 cylinder ones, turn the engine until one valve is fully down, mark the engine belt pulley, turn the engine one complete turn and then adjust that valve. Repeat for the rest.

Hope this is easy to sort and turns out to be something simple.

 

[purple8]

so... I cant really believe it but by simply removing the isolator all together and going straight to the battery I got the engine to start.

I guess ur right and amazon wasn't a sensible choice for buying a battery isolator.

one minute into engine running tho and the smoke began...

one bird down tho

[GUMPY]

My first thought on white smoke is head gasket!

Or

Unburnt diesel.

[WotEver]

Both alternator belts good and correctly tensioned? (How do you fit 2 Alts to an m3.09?)

[purple8]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Both alternator belts good and correctly tensioned? (How do you fit 2 Alts to an m3.09?)

both belts are lovely in tension, perfect infact... One alt has been added on the starboard side of the engine, an extra wheel has been bolted on to accommodate it... Seems to work... Will test properly again in the morning.

 

25 minutes ago, Loddon said:

My first thought on white smoke is head gasket!

Or

Unburnt diesel.

that's the third mention of head gasket... Please stop your scaring me!

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, purple8 said:

that's the third mention of head gasket... Please stop your scaring me!

If it is the head gasket it's probably overheated at some time. Water level ok in the heat exchanger?  Even if it is the head gasket it's not like the engine has to come out or anything, it's a reasonably straightforward job to replace. 

[purple8]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

If it is the head gasket it's probably overheated at some time. Water level ok in the heat exchanger?  Even if it is the head gasket it's not like the engine has to come out or anything, it's a reasonably straightforward job to replace. 

i havent noticed overheating. Warning light has never come on and water level is ok.

I've always assumed head gasket was a hard and expensive fix

[Tony Brooks]

54 minutes ago, purple8 said:

so... I cant really believe it but by simply removing the isolator all together and going straight to the battery I got the engine to start.

I guess ur right and amazon wasn't a sensible choice for buying a battery isolator.

one minute into engine running tho and the smoke began...

one bird down tho

On no account buy another isolator with a plastic removable key. They are known to be unreliable.

With the engine on fast idle try loosening each injector pipe in turn. If one makes little difference to engine speed and/r sound it just might be an injector stuck open on that cylinder. Despite what some may say this is NOT dangerous. The fuel exiting the union is at zero pressure by the time you can touch it

[DHutch]

On an automotive engine, where you have overhead cams with a belt, single use stretch bolts, and access is poor then  head gasket is a big job. On a push rod engine is quite a bot easier and not necessarily the end of the world. 

The huge range of replies does show quite how hard it is to diagnose these sorts of thing remotely. Best of luck for sure!

 

Daniel

[MtB]

Well if it turns over with a spanner, even with difficulty, I'd say it is not a partial seize. On reflection I agree with the other posters continuous white smoke suggests head gasket because it is actually steam. 

There is a test kit one can use on the coolant water to detect CO2 (i.e. exhaust gas) dissolved in the coolant. A positive result is a positive diagnosis of head gasket failure.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-VAN-MOTOR-COMBUSTION-LEAK-CO2-TESTER-KIT-HEAD-GASKET-TEST-BLOCK-Fluid-10ml-/302160186385?hash=item465a268c11:g:z58AAOSwTM5Y5Lal

(Or a cracked block or cylinder head. But I won't mention that yet  ) 

[Robbo]

The white smoke could be unburnt diesel caused by a injector problem.