Returning to time restricted moorings.

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

Yeah, but what you cited at 2.1 is from a fictional document, it has no relevance to anything. 

 

[Iain_S]

2 hours ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said:

Yeah, but what you cited at 2.1 is from a fictional document, it has no relevance to anything. 

 

So are you arguing that a boat with a home mooring cannot moor anywhere else but at that mooring, as CaRT do not have the power to grant permission, as said permission is not covered by statute law???

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

So are you arguing that a boat with a home mooring cannot moor anywhere else but at that mooring, as CaRT do not have the power to grant permission, as said permission is not covered by statute law???

 

It's Onion Bargee. Pointless arguing. It's what he gets off on.

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

2 hours ago, Iain_S said:

So are you arguing that a boat with a home mooring cannot moor anywhere else but at that mooring, as CaRT do not have the power to grant permission, as said permission is not covered by statute law???

No I am arguing that what you cited is a CRT fiction and is not either statute or bylaw and therefore irrelevant.

I don't know if permission needs to be granted , please link to the relevant legislation that says no one can moor without permission or unless they have declared to have no home mooring . 

[Jerra]

9 minutes ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said:

No I am arguing that what you cited is a CRT fiction and is not either statute or bylaw and therefore irrelevant.

Do you consider the finer points of statute and by-law for everything in your daily life or is it just that chip on your shoulder again?

[Iain_S]

35 minutes ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said:

No I am arguing that what you cited is a CRT fiction and is not either statute or bylaw and therefore irrelevant.

I don't know if permission needs to be granted , please link to the relevant legislation that says no one can moor without permission or unless they have declared to have no home mooring . 

I didn't actually cite 2.1 from license conditions, but I agree that my interpretation four posts ago is ridiculous. Bearing in mind the principle that anything not forbidden, is permitted, obviously, a boat with a home mooring can be moored anywhere on the towpath for as long as it likes, with no 14 day limitation. (unless you can link to the legislation that says otherwise)

Edited May 30, 2017 by Iain_S
speeling

[mayalld]

20 hours ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said:

Moorings time limits on the towpath under 14 days are not lawful,  irrespective of whether they are a good idea or not,  the 14 day time limit is statutory, ie the law, there is absolutely nothing CaRT can do about that except petition parliment to change the law. Even IF the licence was a civil contract that you agreed to, no contract term can ( normally) override the law, any such term is void, and no one is bound by such a unlawful term. The reduced time limits are therefore purely voluntary.

The 14 day limit is NOT Statutory.

It is mentioned in an Act of Parliament ONLY in s17 of BWA 1995, and then only in relation to boats that have no home mooring.

If your argument were to hold true, then (as I have a home mooring) I could legally plonk my boat on a 24 hour VM permanently.

Fortunately, it is just a gross error of logic on your part

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

22 minutes ago, mayalld said:

The 14 day limit is NOT Statutory.

It is mentioned in an Act of Parliament ONLY in s17 of BWA 1995, and then only in relation to boats that have no home mooring.

If your argument were to hold true, then (as I have a home mooring) I could legally plonk my boat on a 24 hour VM permanently.

Fortunately, it is just a gross error of logic on your part

Its not statutory, but is part of an act of parliment, a statute ? How does that work ?

Like I said, I don't know what legislation limits the time those with a home mooring can moor whilst away from their mooring, and no one has yet come up with any. I would be very grateful if they would.

[Iain_S]

I would suggest that as CaRT are the landowner (on the towpath side, at least), they are entitled to set terms and conditions .....

 

[NigelMoore]

17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Hopefully Nigel may respond with 'chapter & verse' and quote the relevant Act.

This one of those topics where clear-cut chapter and verse is not always available. The universal condition over all the BW waterways that has any application is that the towpaths should not be obstructed – absent such legislation as the 1995 Act therefore, no right to stay at any point on the towpath - more than [at most] overnight for practical reasons – exists in the previous statutes. The 14 day and other limits are merely pragmatic tolerances.

 In fact, as I have just posted on another topic, following the opening up of the Grand Junction Canal in 1793, pleasure boating in London became so popular, that within 8 years it created such an impediment to the commercial use of the towpath that the company went back to Parliament for another Act, removing all rights to towpath access for pleasure boats, and even banning them from sailing as well as towing.

 So far as I know, that was never repealed. However enforcement would serve no modern day purpose, and long use and published policy would grant to all boaters everywhere on the system what in modern legal parlance is described as a “legitimate expectation” that mooring for up to 14 days in any one place is lawfully reasonable, whether licensed with or without a home mooring.

 Perhaps it might help to consider that technically, any boat, moored no matter how temporarily on the towpath, is obstructing use of the towpath for its designated purpose to everybody else. That being so, s.18 of the 1995 Act kicks in, such that CaRT could legitimately at any point move along an ‘obstructing’ boat under s.8(5) without notice.

[mayalld]

21 minutes ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said:

Its not statutory, but is part of an act of parliment, a statute ? How does that work ?

Like I said, I don't know what legislation limits the time those with a home mooring can moor whilst away from their mooring, and no one has yet come up with any. I would be very grateful if they would.

Yes, 14 days is laid down in statute, as the maximum time that a boat without a home mooring can remain in one "Place"

That doesn't mean that 14 days also applies to boaters with a home mooring.

It doesn't mean that a limit of 2 days at a particular location is illegal.

[NigelMoore]

17 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

I would suggest that as CaRT are the landowner (on the towpath side, at least), they are entitled to set terms and conditions .....

 

Land ownership by statutory bodies of property designated for specified public purposes is of no relevance to the powers they have for controlling use of that property. Whether they do or do not own the towpath is irrelevant, therefore, to their statutory powers for controlling its use, whereas their ownership of offside land for “private” business purposes does [since 1962] allow them to charge for and condition use of those premises as they please.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, NigelMoore said:

The universal condition over all the BW waterways that has any application is that the towpaths should not be obstructed – absent such legislation as the 1995 Act therefore, no right to stay at any point on the towpath - more than [at most] overnight for practical reasons – exists in the previous statutes. The 14 day and other limits are merely pragmatic tolerances.

Many thanks - much as I remembered it.

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

20 hours ago, Iain_S said:

I didn't actually cite 2.1 from license conditions, but I agree that my interpretation four posts ago is ridiculous. Bearing in mind the principle that anything not forbidden, is permitted, obviously, a boat with a home mooring can be moored anywhere on the towpath for as long as it likes, with no 14 day limitation. (unless you can link to the legislation that says otherwise)

Edited May 31, 2017 by Muddy Ditch Rich
Edit

[Iain_S]

I really needed an irony smiley, there 

[Alan de Enfield]

23 hours ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said:

 

 

32 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

I really needed an irony smiley, there 

Obviously struck dumb when the 'facts' are provided.

[Iain_S]

Me or him?

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

Its a discussion not a competition. 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Me or him?

'Im.

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

From http://kanda.boatingcommunity.org.uk/local-mooring-strategy-to-start-on-1st-may-for-trial-12-months/#more-3967

"CRT has no power to impose visitor mooring time limits, maximum stays per month or “extended stay” charges; BW provided evidence to the Select Committee that drafted the 1995 Act that all such signs were advisory at the time, and they remain advisory to this day because the legislation regarding visitor moorings and overstaying fines that BW wanted was denied by the Select Committee."

[Iain_S]

12 hours ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said:

From http://kanda.boatingcommunity.org.uk/local-mooring-strategy-to-start-on-1st-may-for-trial-12-months/#more-3967

"CRT has no power to impose visitor mooring time limits, maximum stays per month or “extended stay” charges; BW provided evidence to the Select Committee that drafted the 1995 Act that all such signs were advisory at the time, and they remain advisory to this day because the legislation regarding visitor moorings and overstaying fines that BW wanted was denied by the Select Committee."

That statement is debatable, but we've done it before, and there seems little point in doing it again