Buying a Sailaway

[Bromleyxphil]

Hi guys

Hi guys

I am going to have a look at a sailaway that someone bought from a recognised builder and then due to personal circumstances hasn't been able to fit out.  If my prospective layout works on it and I can agree a price what processes would you advise to determine the ownership of the boat?  My worry is if there is some kind of finance stake in the boat.....is there a HPI type search?

Phil

 

This at least may curb some of my wild and whacky ideas.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Bromleyxphil

[mrsmelly]

14 minutes ago, Bromleyxphil said:

Hi guys

Hi guys

I am going to have a look at a sailaway that someone bought from a recognised builder and then due to personal circumstances hasn't been able to fit out.  If my prospective layout works on it and I can agree a price what processes would you advise to determine the ownership of the boat?  My worry is if there is some kind of finance stake in the boat.....is there a HPI type search?

Phil

 

This at least may curb some of my wild and whacky ideas.

I am going to have a look at a sailaway that someone bought from a recognised builder and then due to personal circumstances hasn't been able to fit out.  If my prospective layout works on it and I can agree a price what processes would you advise to determine the ownership of the boat?  My worry is if there is some kind of finance stake in the boat.....is there a HPI type search?
phil

I am going to have a look at a sailaway that someone bought from a recognised builder and then due to personal circumstances hasn't been able to fit out.  If my prospective layout works on it and I can agree a price what processes would you advise to determine the ownership of the boat?  My worry is if there is some kind of finance stake in the boat.....is there a HPI type search?
phil

The short answer is NO. Of course you can ask the builder? and ask around but the beauty of boats in my opinion is the lack of paperwork crap so necesary with such as houses and to a lesser extent cars. Half my boats have been bought and sold without so much as a receipt. My last boat I sold for fifty k and only had a scribbled bit of paper from first owner re ownership.

I luuuurv the laid back style we have with boats.

[Alan de Enfield]

All you can hope for is that he has the original receipts for his payments.

Ideally there would be a 'VAT Paid' form in addition

You would also need the RCD declaration for the build to the current level. A boat without an RCD 'cannot be sold for 5 years from when it is placed on the market', this can be from when the boat is completed, OR, from when it is offered for sale.

 

 

[Bromleyxphil]

Thanks guys so the usual precautions, as many bills / receipts as poss and do the transfer at his house.  Bank transfer? The best way to pay?

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You would also need the RCD declaration for the build to the current level. A boat without an RCD 'cannot be sold for 5 years from when it is placed on the market', this can be from when the boat is completed, OR, from when it is offered for sale.

Don't overlook this... How old is the boat?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

If the sailaway is more than five years old, then no problem. If less, then it needs to have full RCD certification officially before it can be sold. What the consequences are of ignoring this if caught I have no idea. Never heard of it happening. Do they fall on the seller, buyer, boat? Are the consequences legal, criminal, or civil, insurance payout in the event of a claim? Anyone know for sure? This must come up regularly. People buy sailaways, then their circumstances change before the five years are up. I doubt a broker would touch such a boat with an easily available barge pole, but a private sale couild still happen through ignorance, or ignoring the law. 

Jen

Edited May 22, 2017 by Jen-in-Wellies

[mrsmelly]

35 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If the sailaway is more than five years old, then no problem. If less, then it needs to have full RCD certification officially before it can be sold. What the consequences are of ignoring this if caught I have no idea. Never heard of it happening. Do they fall on the seller, buyer, boat? Are the consequences legal, criminal, or civil, insurance payout in the event of a claim? Anyone know for sure? This must come up regularly. People buy sailaways, then their circumstances change before the five years are up. I doubt a broker would touch such a boat with an easily available barge pole, but a private sale couild still happen through ignorance, or ignoring the law. 

Jen

My last boat was a widebeam I bought it from the original owner when it was less than four years old. The boat had no RCD whatsoever I bought the boat and kept it 3 years before selling it instantly to a cash buyer without a survey ( I never have a survey ) he didnt give two hoots about RCD. The original owner who sold it to me was not arrested, clapped in irons and is not now doing life imprisonment. Some laws are stupid especialy when impossible to Police and no paper trail to follow, RCD is one such law. My boat was a fab boat and sold for full market value just as much as if it had been RCD jobbied.

[Bee]

The RCD is really not much to worry about for UK canal boats, It might be of some relevance if you were buying a boat to sail the Southern oceans with albatrosses smacking into the rigging and whales munching the keel but it really doesn't mean much. Anyway, now that we have 'taken back control' is it relevant in any way?

[David Mack]

20 hours ago, Bromleyxphil said:

My worry is if there is some kind of finance stake in the boat.....is there a HPI type search?

If he borrowed money to buy the boat it will almost certainly be a personal loan for which he is liable, and not secured on the boat.

[efanton]

Here it is in full detail,  have this bookmarked already as part of my research and preparation prior to buying boat

 

http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/recreational-craft-directive.aspx

 

Quote

 

A craft is exempted from the RCD if is one of the following:

  -  watercraft built for own use, provided it is not subsequently placed on the Community market during a period of five years; or

 

 

As I understand it,  if you buy a sail away or indeed a fully fitted boat new you do not need a RCD and are entitled to claim the VAT if it is intended to be a live aboard and therefore a home.  If you buy a sail away that previously has been owned you cant get that VAT deduction and also  have to get the RCD.

Some one else with more experience or knowledge might correct or amend the above

Edited May 22, 2017 by efanton

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, efanton said:

As I understand it,  if you buy a sail away or indeed a fully fitted boat new you do not need a RCD and are entitled to claim the VAT if it is intended to be a live aboard and therefore a home.  If you buy a sail away that previously has been owned you cant get that VAT deduction and also  have to get the RCD.

Unfortunately your understanding is wildly incorrect on both the VAT and the RCD (you don't live in Scotland do you ?)

 

If you build your own boat - for your own use, then you are correct.

If a 'boatbuilder' builds the boat and sells it to you it is not for HIS OWN USE and is subject to the RCD rules.

There are very specific dimensions to qualify for VAT Exemption and a NB will not comply - and - very few widebeams will.

 

Have a read of this.

http://www.thefitoutpontoon.co.uk/buying-building-canal-narrowboat-vat-free-tax-exemption-regulations-liveaboard-qualifying-vessel-widebeam.html

 

Edit to add Government link

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services

 

The intended use of a vessel does not affect qualifying ship status. The only factors to be considered are the gross tonnage, the design of the ship and any subsequent adaptations. If the ship is designed or adapted to be used for recreation or pleasure (such as cruising on rivers or canals), rather than predominantly as permanent residential accommodation, it is not a qualifying ship.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[efanton]

thanks for that Alan,  happy to be corrected,  how else am I going to learn. 

 

thanks for the link regarding the calculations for HMRC.  Was aware of the 15 tonne rule but NOT how HMRC calculated it.  I was assuming on gross weight of entire fit out.

 

There's so much to learn and so many sources with apparently different information that it is very confusing and time consuming.

[blackrose]

11 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

My last boat was a widebeam I bought it from the original owner when it was less than four years old. The boat had no RCD whatsoever I bought the boat and kept it 3 years before selling it instantly to a cash buyer without a survey ( I never have a survey ) he didnt give two hoots about RCD. The original owner who sold it to me was not arrested, clapped in irons and is not now doing life imprisonment. Some laws are stupid especialy when impossible to Police and no paper trail to follow, RCD is one such law. My boat was a fab boat and sold for full market value just as much as if it had been RCD jobbied.

I'm sure that one can buy or sell a sailaway without the relevant RCD certification within the 5 year period without dire consequences. However, unless the price seriously reflected the boat's status, then as a buyer I would personally be looking at some of the hundreds of fully legitimate boats for sale rather than a boat that might come back to bite me in the arse - especially given that there is no upside to doing the latter.  

Edited May 22, 2017 by blackrose

[mrsmelly]

37 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'm sure that one can buy or sell a sailaway without the relevant RCD certification within the 5 year period without dire consequences. However, unless the price seriously reflected the boat's status, then as a buyer I would personally be looking at some of the hundreds of fully legitimate boats for sale rather than a boat that might come back to bite me in the arse - especially given that there is no upside to doing the latter.  

You are probably right and many people think that way but there always will be people like myself and both the people who wanted to buy my boat who dont worry about such matters. The boat sold for the price the broker stated instantly and that was the price he quoted if it had RCD compliance. In reality the hull, the engine and all other major components were the identical components as would have been fitted to an RCD compliant boat anyway. The BSS examiner didnt give two hoots when I had the certificate renewed. The RCD paperwork means nowt on a boat over five years old anyway so it realy is a nonsense.

[blackrose]

8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

You are probably right and many people think that way but there always will be people like myself and both the people who wanted to buy my boat who dont worry about such matters. The boat sold for the price the broker stated instantly and that was the price he quoted if it had RCD compliance. In reality the hull, the engine and all other major components were the identical components as would have been fitted to an RCD compliant boat anyway. The BSS examiner didnt give two hoots when I had the certificate renewed. The RCD paperwork means nowt on a boat over five years old anyway so it realy is a nonsense.

Yes, I bought my boat as a sailaway 12 years ago and never bothered with the RCD, choosing instead to fit out to the much simpler and more practical BSS route. I knew I wouldn't be selling within 5 years.

I don't know if RCD compliance means nowt on a boat over 5 years old - is that true? Anyway, I have no particular personal affinity for the RCD, just that if I were a buyer I'd rather buy a boat with the correct documentation.

Perhaps you were just fortunate in selling your boat so easily without the relevant paperwork - others might not be so lucky.

Edited May 22, 2017 by blackrose

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Yes, I bought my boat as a sailaway 12 years ago and never bothered with the RCD, choosing instead to fit out to the much simpler and more practical BSS route. I knew I wouldn't be selling within 5 years.

I don't know if RCD compliance means nowt on a boat over 5 years old - is that true? Anyway, I have no particular personal affinity for the RCD, just that if I were a buyer I'd rather buy a boat with the correct documentation.

Perhaps you were just fortunate in selling your boat so easily without the relevant paperwork - others might not be so lucky.

Yes maybe but aint it daft we have to put up with all the bunkum. 

[Bromleyxphil]

Thanks again guys for all of the information, my understanding is that the boat is only 18 months old and I am going to view it tomorrow primarily to measure the window layout and see if I can fit my layout in.  I will ask about all of the documentation you mention, what does an RCD look like?  I am then heading to Crick at the weekend and will then make a decision.  Am I right in thinking I don't need to rush as sailaways come up regularly or can just be ordered.  The main saving on buying this one would be delivery time saving.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, Bromleyxphil said:

what does an RCD look like?

Depending on the context, it could be one-of-two things

1) RCD (Residual Current Device) looks like a fuse box.

2 RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) is the European standard to which the boat is built. There should be declarations from the builder, an 'owners manual', there should be certification from the guy that you are buying it from that all work he has done has been done in accordance with the specifications, and, on a 'finished' boat here will be a plaque detailing the boat 'category' (A, B, C, D,), the number of persons that it will carry after the weight tests and stability test have been undertaken, the date of build and the manufacturers details.

 

The boat (Legally) cannot be sold for 5 years unless it has a completed RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) As has been said, the chance of you, or the seller, being 'caught' are remote but in most peoples eyes not having the RCD devalues the boat by a huge amount. I was able to negotiate almost £100,000 off a boats selling price because the seller needed a quick sale due to 'family problems', the fact it did not have an RCD an there was no 'VAT Paid' certificate.

The choice is yours - but I'd look to go ahead if the boat was what I wanted and the price was 30% below market rate.

[Bromleyxphil]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Depending on the context, it could be one-of-two things

1) RCD (Residual Current Device) looks like a fuse box.

2 RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) is the European standard to which the boat is built.

Thanks Alan

I must admit 1 was the first thing that sprung to mind.  I had done a little reading up but your explanation helps.

Phil

 

[jddevel]

On ‎23‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 21:17, Bromleyxphil said:

 Am I right in thinking I don't need to rush as sailaways come up regularly or can just be ordered.

At sometime or other you are going to come to a decision. Does it fulfil your wish list. If your motivation is mainly price rather than a sense of achievement or getting exactly what you want then there are others also looking for bargains which will help the buyer achieving what they want. Also add this into your time frame. I bought my sailaway built by a quality builder and took delivery following certain additions last October. Following excellent advice from the forum had it delivered 6 minutes from my home/ wood workshop. I`ve worked on it fulltime and still have at least two months before it`s ready for the water.

 

23 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

is the European standard to which the boat is built

Final point which admittedly has been voiced whilst many will say the existence of a RCD may aid a future sale I would add that this may be countered by the fact that a sailaway is a less expensive way of getting exactly what you want plus getting a sense of achievement and with Brexit may possibly be irrelevant in a few years time which could coincide with the 5 year period currently relevant to some.

 

On ‎24‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 07:43, Alan de Enfield said:

I was able to negotiate almost £100,000 off a boats selling price

Possibly too many noughts??  Although reminds me of a press report  many years ago about a irate/scorned  wife who sold her husbands nearly new Jaguar car for £5

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, jddevel said:

 

Possibly too many noughts?? 

No - exactly the correct number.

The boat would have been valued at around £250,000 - it was a 'distress sale' and because of the reasons I mentioned I purchased it for £160,000 for a 'quick cash, no survey' offer.

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No - exactly the correct number.

The boat would have been valued at around £250,000 - it was a 'distress sale' and because of the reasons I mentioned I purchased it for £160,000 for a 'quick cash, no survey' offer.

And how are you getting on with 'Whitefield'?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Athy said:

And how are you getting on with 'Whitefield'?

No need to be offensive !!!!

(It was/is Tupperware - not a tin slug)

[Athy]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No need to be offensive !!!!

(It was/is Tupperware - not a tin slug)

Tee-hee.

But seriously, that amount of money must have bought a considerable amount of "Tupperware" - is she a sea-going craft?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

Tee-hee.

But seriously, that amount of money must have bought a considerable amount of "Tupperware" - is she a sea-going craft?

Yes - once I'd sorted out getting an RCD declaration from the manufacturer and Croatian customs to issue a 'VAT Paid' certificate (a good contribution to their coffee fund helped) we bought her back from Croatia (3000+ mile cruise)

 

She now has all the correct 'ships papers'.