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Pump out toilet efficiency. My mind is blown...


Nunovyrbizz

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So while walking the dog this morning I got chatting to a very long time nb live aboard owner. (10+ years). We somehow got around to chatting about how long we get between pump outs and when I said I got about 5-6 weeks as a permanent live aboard, he responded with he gets around 4 to 5 months. 

He said and I quote "I shit in the bog and piss in the sink! If I am moored near any type of civilisation, I hold the turtle's head in and go and use their bogs"

" you need to wise up young one and save your money for beer!"

When I replied are you must be having a joke, he pointed to a grp cruiser moored a few yards away and said that has a sea toilet and EVERYTHING gets dumped straight into the cut with no legal requirement otherwise. 

When I questioned the hygiene of this he said we've got more chance of getting weil's diesese than any infection from his pee!

 He said he drinks so much cider his pee is basically perfectly sterile and the multiple litres he ejects every day helps keep the water in every pound level!!!!!

My mind is blown.....

Is this true or was he winding me up????

My dog loves drinking canal water :o

 

 

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I think he may have been winding you up BUT there are some valid points in there

1 - you can extend time between pump out by going elsewhere, and also by not drinking just before bed time - pub and supermarket loos tend to be closed at 3am

2 - urine is basically sterile when it leaves the body, however to suggest it is safe or wise to put it in the canal is a bit off, if everyone did it there would be serious environmental implications. 

3 - he's right about weils disease. 

If he's on a CRT canal he is wrong about sea toilets being lawful though, and I wouldn't encourage them anywhere. 

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4 minutes ago, Nunovyrbizz said:

.....he pointed to a grp cruiser moored a few yards away and said that has a sea toilet and EVERYTHING gets dumped straight into the cut with no legal requirement otherwise

Assuming you / he is on a canal then this is probably the only incorrect part of your post.

 

Rivers are a different matter, each having its own regulations - for example we are on the Trent and 'toilet discharge' is perfectly legal

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I suspect the canals are topped up with a fair amount of pee. Whether that causes a significant environmental impact is hard to judge. Consider this though: a couple of years ago, a short section of canal was drained in Birmingham, right in the dirty city centre. It was about 50-100 metres long. CRT had to rescue the fish. There were either 5,000 or 15,000 fish rescued, I can't remember which. Either way, that tells you two things:

1. there's plenty of life thriving down there (I saw plenty of freshwater mussels in the drained section)

2. All that life is producing lots and lots of 'waste product' which will be being broken down by bacteria. 

I doubt a bit of boater urine would make much difference. 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Assuming you / he is on a canal then this is probably the only incorrect part of your post.

 

Rivers are a different matter, each having its own regulations - for example we are on the Trent and 'toilet discharge' is perfectly legal

I can never find any legislation that prohibits use of a sea toilet on canals - could you point me in the right direction if you have a minute?

Thanks.

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12 minutes ago, bozlite said:

I can never find any legislation that prohibits use of a sea toilet on canals - could you point me in the right direction if you have a minute?

Thanks.

Cannot remember the specific act but on a quick search this could be argued to cover it :


40. No person shall throw or discharge into or on to any canal any animal (whether alive or dead) or any rubbish, stones or other material of any kind whatsoever or deposit such materials so as to be washed or carried into any canal by floods or other means, or in any wise cause obstruction in any canal.

41. No person unless authorised by the Board in that behalf or otherwise legally entitled so to do shall:

(a ) Bathe in any canal

(b ) Take any water from any canal (being an inland water to which section 131 of the Water Resources Act 1963, for the time being applies

(c ) Connect any pipe, culvert or drain to any canal or permit any pipe, culvert or drain to discharge on to any property of the Board.

 

Of  course you cannot get a BSS if your discharge is directly into the Canal. without a BSS you cannot get a licence, without a licence you cannot be on (C&RT) waters

Check all toilets and toilet holding tanks for the presence of an overboard discharge line.
If present, check for the presence and condition of a valve installed in the discharge line.

Examiner action – if toilet waste is determined to be escaping into the watercourse contact the BSS Office and take the relevant actions described in Appendix B.  If the arrangements inevitably result in toilet waste discharging overboard contact the BSS Office

 

However - if the boat is fitted with a 'diverter valve' (from overboard discharge to a holding tank) then it will pass the BSS if the 'valve' is diverted to the holding tank whilst the Survey is in progress. The BSS obviously have no control over the position of the valve once the surveyor has left the boat.

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Thanks Alan, you were rather quicker off the mark than me with pretty much the same answer. 

Bylaw 40 could be construed such that even grey water and potato peelings are tolerated rather than being legal. Overall though peeps think what would happen if everyone used sea toilets especially on the busiest canals. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Cannot remember the specific act but on a quick search this could be argued to cover it :


40. No person shall throw or discharge into or on to any canal any animal (whether alive or dead) or any rubbish, stones or other material of any kind whatsoever or deposit such materials so as to be washed or carried into any canal by floods or other means, or in any wise cause obstruction in any canal.

41. No person unless authorised by the Board in that behalf or otherwise legally entitled so to do shall:

(a ) Bathe in any canal

(b ) Take any water from any canal (being an inland water to which section 131 of the Water Resources Act 1963, for the time being applies

(c ) Connect any pipe, culvert or drain to any canal or permit any pipe, culvert or drain to discharge on to any property of the Board.

 

Of  course you cannot get a BSS if your discharge is directly into the Canal. without a BSS you cannot get a licence, without a licence you cannot be on (C&RT) waters

Check all toilets and toilet holding tanks for the presence of an overboard discharge line.
If present, check for the presence and condition of a valve installed in the discharge line.

Examiner action – if toilet waste is determined to be escaping into the watercourse contact the BSS Office and take the relevant actions described in Appendix B.  If the arrangements inevitably result in toilet waste discharging overboard contact the BSS Office

 

However - if the boat is fitted with a 'diverter valve' (from overboard discharge to a holding tank) then it will pass the BSS if the 'valve' is diverted to the holding tank whilst the Survey is in progress. The BSS obviously have no control over the position of the valve once the surveyor has left the boat.

OK - but BW byelaws apply to all waterways under the control of BW - the word 'canal' is so-defined in the byelaws. So the Trent wouldn't be exempt.

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1 hour ago, Dave_P said:

I suspect the canals are topped up with a fair amount of pee. Whether that causes a significant environmental impact is hard to judge. Consider this though: a couple of years ago, a short section of canal was drained in Birmingham, right in the dirty city centre. It was about 50-100 metres long. CRT had to rescue the fish. There were either 5,000 or 15,000 fish rescued, I can't remember which. Either way, that tells you two things:

1. there's plenty of life thriving down there (I saw plenty of freshwater mussels in the drained section)

2. All that life is producing lots and lots of 'waste product' which will be being broken down by bacteria. 

I doubt a bit of boater urine would make much difference. 

You missed out that there must be plenty of stuff for the fish to eat to support that many.  I wonder what that might be............

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12 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

You missed out that there must be plenty of stuff for the fish to eat to support that many.  I wonder what that might be............

Algae, Invertebrates, Vertebrates, plant life of various types and each other

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1 hour ago, mark99 said:

Nowt wrong with collecting urine in bucket ie overnight. Watering down in morning and placing in hedgerow. Great n2 food for plants.

Intresting issue that.

Occasional deposits would make little difference but done regularly it would change the soil chemistry,  which will change the soil flora and fauna with an effect on the visable plant species. 

In effect the species count would reduce and be dominated by the more rank species, grasses nettles etc.

I've seen this on a SSSI, although it was dogs and there waste no human, what was once a bryophyte rich area become dominated by grass

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N2 promotes the green plants. Some gravel pit chains  are eutrified from phospates which perculate from the river sewage outfalls and cross via water table. From say gravel pit to pit.

Edited by mark99
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6 hours ago, Dave_P said:

I suspect the canals are topped up with a fair amount of pee. Whether that causes a significant environmental impact is hard to judge.

I doubt a bit of boater urine would make much difference. 

Having watched cows stood in the canal drinking while at the same time defecating at the other end, I doubt anything I could do would match it!

George ex nb Alton retired

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10 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Having watched cows stood in the canal drinking while at the same time defecating at the other end, I doubt anything I could do would match it!

George ex nb Alton retired

And, of course, the Llangollen Canal is the water supply for the Stoke-On-Trent area, here was a photo taken on the Llangollen.

 

Having said that - it is suggested that the drinking water extracted from the Thames has already passed thru' the human 'system' three times.

DSCF0020.JPG

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My first boat had a sea toilet.    It also had  a  Boat Safety Scheme Certificate .  The outlet from the  toilet had a sea cock that could be closed to prevent discharge into the water.

My present boat has a holding tank which has a deck pump out fitting. However it also has a macerator pump and sea cock  which allows the tank to be pumped out (below the water line) into the water.

We are perhaps lucky that in our area (River Trent) there are moorings at the locks and C&RT toilets available.  It is very rare for us to be moored where there is no shore toilets within a short walk. We use these shore facilities and therefore pee only in the toilet on the boat . 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Cannot remember the specific act but on a quick search this could be argued to cover it :


40. No person shall throw or discharge into or on to any canal any animal (whether alive or dead) or any rubbish, stones or other material of any kind whatsoever or deposit such materials so as to be washed or carried into any canal by floods or other means, or in any wise cause obstruction in any canal.

41. No person unless authorised by the Board in that behalf or otherwise legally entitled so to do shall:

(a ) Bathe in any canal

(b ) Take any water from any canal (being an inland water to which section 131 of the Water Resources Act 1963, for the time being applies

(c ) Connect any pipe, culvert or drain to any canal or permit any pipe, culvert or drain to discharge on to any property of the Board.

 

Of  course you cannot get a BSS if your discharge is directly into the Canal. without a BSS you cannot get a licence, without a licence you cannot be on (C&RT) waters

Check all toilets and toilet holding tanks for the presence of an overboard discharge line.
If present, check for the presence and condition of a valve installed in the discharge line.

Examiner action – if toilet waste is determined to be escaping into the watercourse contact the BSS Office and take the relevant actions described in Appendix B.  If the arrangements inevitably result in toilet waste discharging overboard contact the BSS Office

 

However - if the boat is fitted with a 'diverter valve' (from overboard discharge to a holding tank) then it will pass the BSS if the 'valve' is diverted to the holding tank whilst the Survey is in progress. The BSS obviously have no control over the position of the valve once the surveyor has left the boat.

If that's correct then we all need to block up our sink and shower outflows.

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10 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

If that's correct then we all need to block up our sink and shower outflows.

It is already mandatory in some European (particularly Mediterranean) countries, which is why our boat was built with both Grey & Black water tanks.

In Turkey you need to have a 'blue card', this card is presented each time you pump-out and the quantity of 'pump-out' (Black & Grey water) registered and compared to how many people are on-board, and the time between pump-outs, if the figures 'don't compute' then you are in serious trouble as you have obviously 'pumped-out into the local waters.

 

Thank God for Brexit !!!!

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is already mandatory in some European (particularly Mediterranean) countries, which is why our boat was built with both Grey & Black water tanks.

In Turkey you need to have a 'blue card', this card is presented each time you pump-out and the quantity of 'pump-out' (Black & Grey water) registered and compared to how many people are on-board, and the time between pump-outs, if the figures 'don't compute' then you are in serious trouble as you have obviously 'pumped-out into the local waters.

 

Thank God for Brexit !!!!

??

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I've been drinking tapwater from the Thames pretty much all my life, and I'm 61 and in good health, so I think that whatever Thames Water do to the supply for South London upon extracting it at Kingston is very effective. Yes the treated sewage from Oxford, Reading and many other smaller places gets put back into the river, but it has been treated and it's diluted by all the water flowing in from the large catchment area of the Thames, so I'm not worried.

I certainly wouldn't want to see the discharge of grey water banned here as I gather it is in much of Europe. Turkey's not actually the best example in fact as they're not in the EU, but that's not important. The presence of plenty of wildlife all over our canals (even in London) and rivers suggests to me that grey water is not causing problems. Rivers have plenty of water flowing to dilute it, but even on canals one lock full of water is vastly more than all the grey water from boaters that it will include. Floating rubbish (especially plastic) is a much bigger problem.

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