Reverse Layout V's Standard

[efanton]

Have been browsing the forum trying to pick up advice and knowledge before searching for a boat.  reverse layout has been talked about in some threads but there was no thread that clearly suggests one is better than the other.

I have an idea of the layout I would ideally like and this brings up the issue of Reverse Layout V's Standard. 

Is it simply a personal choice issue?  I can see the benefits of a reverse layout (not having to walk the length of the boat to get a mug of tea, the galley and seating areas that you will use most being closer to the door, muddy feet on a winters day trudging through your bedroom before you change out of your boots)  but are there REAL issues as well?  Does it cost more to fit out a reverse layout (cabling, pipes etc)? Are there other factors?

I am still torn between going the sail away  route and buying a boat that already built.  Obviously deciding that you must have a reverse layout definitely narrows the amount of boats that you might potentially might want to view. Obviously if a reverse layout does mean potentially significant extra cost, or unforeseen downsides then this might change my thinking completely.

 

I have a rough idea of what I consider to be an ideal layout, but never having owned a narrow boat before it might be completely impractical for reasons I have not even considered.  Having thought about it more and on reading various threads I have decided that a semi trad stern would suit my needs (and allow me a shorter boat without giving up cabin space), so ignore the stern.  I would appreciate general comments and advice on the layout and why it might be bad or good

 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by efanton

[Robbo]

If you like living in the centre of a tube then reverse layout is for you.  The standard layout your sitting area is at the front where your eye is based viewing the bow doors and beyond extending your daily living area.  This is also where you enter/exit on a day to day basis not the rear.   Reverse layout has the bed at the front, now all that external bow space is wasted in daily living use!

If you have a different bow from the norm where you don't have the bow doors then that's when a reverse layout makes more sense. 

So what is your bow design?

Edited May 17, 2017 by Robbo

[bastion]

My reverse layout has the living area at the bow with a sofabed  and then the main cabin with a fixed double, corridor with the bathroom to one side and then the dinnette and galley. Works well for me still having the views from the main relaxing area and the added benefit of coming into the boat on to a hard floor area.

[Vicky]

The good thing about having the sitting area at the front of the boat is access to the front deck. We had a cratch cover and essentially used it as a dining area in the summer. and it was great for entertaining. Also, we stored the coal/logs in the lockers for easy access for the stove. I wouldn't fancy carrying coal and logs through the sleeping area, unless of course you've got generous storage at the back somewhere.

[system 4-50]

Also, for true passengers, sitting up front is away from the noise & vibration, if any, of the engine when travelling.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Robbo said:

If you like living in the centre of a tube then reverse layout is for you.  The standard layout your sitting area is at the front where your eye is based viewing the bow doors and beyond extending your daily living area.  This is also where you enter/exit on a day to day basis not the rear.   Reverse layout has the bed at the front, now all that external bow space is wasted in daily living use!

If you have a different bow from the norm where you don't have the bow doors then that's when a reverse layout makes more sense. 

So what is your bow design?

But even the bit in red is a personal choice. Going in and out by the front doors is fine if you are able enough to EASILY climb over the gunwales. It probably makes sense if you have one of those "trad" sterns where you have to crawl across/around the engine case to enter from the rear but on many cruisers and I suspect semi-trads with easy steps down into the back cabin the normal entry door will be the one at the rear.

If you do have normally enter from the rear then by putting the galley there allows you to have flooring that can get wet, muddy, and cleans up easily but it tends to preclude having a "wet coat area" by the door (all generalisations). A rear galley also minimises the hot pipe runs if you have an engine heated calorifier for hot water.

Personally we find our unconventional layout works well for us. Rear sitting room/TV room with chair beds, toilet with side corridor, double bed room, galley, front dining/sitting room so it really is personal choice.

[johnnie1uk]

Reverse layout with a cruiser stern works well for us, wouldn't have it any other way, the bow area, is so small anyway its not that beneficial.  

[Guest]

Reverse layout for us too, wet muddy dogs can stay in the galley and dry off before entering living areas. Hubby gets muddy too, I can shut him in as well!!!!!! 

[chubby]

Personally i cannot understand the appeal of reverse layout . My 58 ft trad ( modern ) is standard layout . Bow , saloon , kitchen , bathroom , bed . I go in & out via the bow doors . I have carpets up to the bow doors but if i was concerned about muddy shoes etc ( i never wear outdoor shoes inside the boat - theyre removed on the step as i enter )i would fit about 3 foot of vinyl flooring before the doors and then carpet . 

On a fine summers day the doors are wide open & i can slouch on the settee listening to birds singing and genearl peace n quiet which is nice , but on a reverse layout the saloon is halfway along the boat and a side hatch may be your only way of allowing the outside world in - not for me at all im afraid . 

Also by having my saloon at the front it means that if i run my engine whilst stationary ( i don t do this but many folk do ) then i am sat as far from then engine noise as possible .

Bringing coal indoors in winter is easy as stove is next to bow doors so no having to heave it thru the boat etc .

For me these are the major advantages of standard layout . As long as u use the bow doors as your entrance / exit and not the awkward rear doors ( awkward often on a " modern " trad stern ) then its about as ideal as it can be IMO . 

cheers

[WotEver]

6 hours ago, efanton said:

I am still torn between going the sail away  route and buying a boat that already built. 

Based on...

6 hours ago, efanton said:

... never having owned a narrow boat before...

You would do MUCH better by buying a 2nd hand boat and finding from experience what you like and dislike about it over a period of months/years before considering a sailaway. 

[chubby]

Wotevers advice about is 100% spot on . You could spend an awful lot of time , money & effort building your " ideal " boat only to find that your theoretical idea of ideal is different from the real world idea of ideal . 

The simple truth is , although it may sound a little patronising ( its not meant that way ) , is that without practical experience you simply are unaware of what works and what doesn t . 

As Wotever correctly and wisely suggests it would be better to consider buying a second hand ( not pre loved or some other BS modern turn of phrase ) boat in what you think constitutes ideal and making adjustments as necessary . You may even find that your ideas change completely . 

Get it wrong on a sailaway and you may find you are the owner of an expensive and time consuming boat that infact doesn t suit your needs and that would be at best annoying and at worst thoroughly depressing . 

Consider a second hand boat and go looking at as many boats as you can but look at boats that fit your current ideas of " right " but also look at boats that you would currently think of as " wrong " - you may find that your plans change - only looking at real interiors and layouts in the flesh will confirm your plans 

cheers

Edited May 17, 2017 by chubby

[Nightwatch]

Not sure what we are. From the bow,

saloon,bathroom,bedroom,dining and then galley. Cruiser Stern. Pram cover (which us a godsend in this weather).

 

martyn

[WJM]

6 hours ago, Robbo said:

If you like living in the centre of a tube then reverse layout is for you.  The standard layout your sitting area is at the front where your eye is based viewing the bow doors and beyond extending your daily living area.  This is also where you enter/exit on a day to day basis not the rear.   Reverse layout has the bed at the front, now all that external bow space is wasted in daily living use!

I totally agree - With the living area at the front you can see out while seated and in good weather the front deck is an extension of the living space. The rear of a narrowboat has a very enclosed feel much better suited to a bedroom. 

[bastion]

14 minutes ago, WJM said:

I totally agree - With the living area at the front you can see out while seated and in good weather the front deck is an extension of the living space. The rear of a narrowboat has a very enclosed feel much better suited to a bedroom. 

But having the bedroom in the middle gives me two social areas. Think this gives me the best features of both trad and reverse layouts.

[Johny London]

I don't think that there can ever be an "ideal" layout. On a narrowboat, someting will always have to give. It's your choice what.

I bought a sailaway built to my own design - and I'm very pleased indeed with the layout (bow/saloon/galley/bathroom/bed/wc/study) Infact the only niggle could be that I'd rather my bedroom was more private and possibly at a bow end where I could have it sat centrally (and 6" wider!). But everything else I love - as already said, the saloon with bow doors opening up in summer. Also my bed is not too far from the stove (which I have at the galley end of the saloon) - often I've been glad not to go to bed right down the stern by the doors. Also the bath is brilliant - everyone should have one.

All that said, I can see the sense in a reverse layout, but only if you have a large (cruiser style) stern deck that you will use as your outdoor space. I've seen this work well on widebeams where the kitchen then living accommodation feel airy.

So, if you go reverse, get a cruiser style, if you go standard, get a decent sized well deck. Whatever you do, there will be pros and cons.

Personally, I always enter at the stern - wouldn't want to be going straight into my living area with mud and or cold weather blowing in.

[Bewildered]

We have a standard layout cruiser stern. We always get on and off at the stern. I would prefer it to be reverse layout, it is a real pain if doing any work that gets you dirty or oily then trying to carefully side step passed the bed so you don't get the bedspread dirty just to get in to wash your hands.

i could get on at the bow but our boat has a short shallow well deck with cratch cover which is a pain to get on or off the boat.

having the crew bring you a cuppa whilst cruising also means passing the bed on a moving boat with a full cup of tea in a confined gangway.

however as has been said previously it is a lot easier to get coal stored on the bow into the salon.

your best bet is to go to a broker and view boats of both styles and while on board try to envisage how daily routines are going to be done on each type. Getting on and off and removing coats/boots in the wet, getting coal and logs to the stove, manovering tea past obstacles  etc, and of course the best way to load up with beer 

talk to boaters on the towpath about the style they have and what they like/dislike about it, you may find more than a few who will invite you aboard to take a look.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Bewildered

[system 4-50]

I think cratches look vile so I told my hull builder that I wouldn't be having one in case it affected how it was built. He smiled, and said "You will". After 7 years of without, I am now planning on getting one. If I had gone for it at the beginning, would it have changed my reverse layout? Probably not because my absolute top requirement was for a large fixed double bed. This means the passage is the legal minimum so is best at the front since the main entry is at the stern.

[Robbo]

I can certainly see why someone would like a reverse layout on a narrowboat if the bow doesn't suit.  But on a widebeam with a big open bow, you see lots have the bedroom here!  Now that doesn't make sense!

Edited May 17, 2017 by Robbo

[mrsmelly]

It is all completely personal the thing I would always want would be saloon at front so doors open in summer looking out etc. Present layout which is my fave of all our boats so far is form pointy end

Saloon ( was wood floor now quality carpet as we have a dog and its EASIER to keep clean YES easier ) and more comfortable underfoot and warmer

Dinette

Galley

Bedroom

Bathroom

Rear laundry room also housing airing cupboard/leccy cupboards/cauliflower/washing machine/tumble dryer. Exellent location as well away from saloon. 68 foot boat.

[efanton]

Thanks to everyone that responded.  Lots to think about and some thoughts that I had not considered, which is exactly why I started the thread.

I should have mentioned that the bow deck will be used to store a motorcycle so a cratch will definitely not be part of the plan. that will also mean that some (probably nearly half) of the bow deck will not be usable for the entertaining or visitors.

As for coal and fuel for stove I had considered that, and that was the purpose of one of those two storage areas just inside the stern door. By having the lounge areas nearest the stern and not the galley as in most reverse layouts I was deliberately making the distance from stove to stern doors (and storage area) as short as possible.

Quote

A rear galley also minimises the hot pipe runs if you have an engine heated calorifier for hot water.

That was also a reason for posting.  By putting the galley in the centre of the boat (with shower and toilet backing on to it in separate room) I am still concerned about piping issues.  What are the consequences of long pipe run apart from the cost of a few metres of pipe?

I am not presently in England, so as much as I would love to visit canals and marinas to look at boats and get the thoughts of owners I cant.  Next best thing I can do is post here where I can get opinions of active narrow boat owners who don't just use their boats the occasional weekend where a bad layout doesn't really affect them much as they spend so little time on board.  I will be visiting my sister in Aylesbury in July for a week so do intend to go down to the Aylesbury basin and take a look at the new marina near the Oakfield bridge.

 

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, efanton said:

That was also a reason for posting.  By putting the galley in the centre of the boat (with shower and toilet backing on to it in separate room) I am still concerned about piping issues.  What are the consequences of long pipe run apart from the cost of a few metres of pipe.

More water cooling down in the pipe so you draw more off to get hot enough water from the tap. Probably hardly significant overall though.

[mrsmelly]

17 minutes ago, efanton said:

Thanks to everyone that responded.  Lots to think about and some thoughts that I had not considered, which is exactly why I started the thread.

I should have mentioned that the bow deck will be used to store a motorcycle so a cratch will definitely not be part of the plan. that will also mean that some (probably nearly half) of the bow deck will not be usable for the entertaining or visitors.

As for coal and fuel for stove I had considered that, and that was the purpose of one of those two storage areas just inside the stern door. By having the lounge areas nearest the stern and not the galley as in most reverse layouts I was deliberately making the distance from stove to stern doors (and storage area) as short as possible.

That was also a reason for posting.  By putting the galley in the centre of the boat (with shower and toilet backing on to it in separate room) I am still concerned about piping issues.  What are the consequences of long pipe run apart from the cost of a few metres of pipe?

I am not presently in England, so as much as I would love to visit canals and marinas to look at boats and get the thoughts of owners I cant.  Next best thing I can do is post here where I can get opinions of active narrow boat owners who don't just use their boats the occasional weekend where a bad layout doesn't really affect them much as they spend so little time on board.  I will be visiting my sister in Aylesbury in July for a week so do intend to go down to the Aylesbury basin and take a look at the new marina near the Oakfield bridge.

 

There are no issues with pipe runs. My galley sink is centre of boat and a about 20 feet minimum from cauliflower and water is scalding hot. As you say a few shillings in cheapo pipework is the only difference. Edited to add just read Tonys post above mine and yes I probably do on thinking have to draw extra hot water from the tank than on a closer coupling, however its very minimal and with a decent sized cauliflower you wouldnt notice the difference.

Edited May 17, 2017 by mrsmelly

[Neil2]

We have a reverse reverse layout the kitchen (galley) is at the bow and being a trad that's how we enter the boat so no muddy feet paw on the lounge carpet.  It's unusual but we liked the layout as soon as we saw the boat and wouldn't have it any other way now.  

[Bewildered]

If you are planning to store a motorbike on the bow you may want to consider a tug deck rather than a well deck, it will be a lot easier to get a bike on and off the boat. You may even be able to incorpetate a swivelling ramp to mount the bike.

somewhere on YouTube there is a video of a boat being built with a hydraulic lift in the well deck to raise the bike to the gunnels and lower down, it has a roof that then becomes the deck

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Bewildered
To add link

[Rickent]

We have reverse layout, galley, saloon with centrally located stove, bathroom and bedroom at the bow.

Works very well for us but as has been said it's all about personal choice, what suits one may not suit another.

If you are unsure what works for you then I suggest you view as many boats as possible to get a good feel for different layouts.