Negotiating Trent Falls in narrowboat

[embis]

Wondering if there were many people who had negotiated Trent Falls, in either direction, in a narrowboat? Looks like a challenging day out with the potential for becoming a suprise trip to the North Sea. I looked on YouTube but there were very few videoes which made me think it was possibly an uncommon trip. Any experiences anyone would share? I'm not planning to attempt it at the moment, just curious.

[Rob-M]

An old thread on Trent Falls http://canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/33815-trent-falls/

 

[Athy]

Embis, you appear to have posted your topic twice, so I have taken the liberty of deleting the other one. Please let me know if this is against your wishes.

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, embis said:

Wondering if there were many people who had negotiated Trent Falls, in either direction, in a narrowboat? Looks like a challenging day out with the potential for becoming a suprise trip to the North Sea. I looked on YouTube but there were very few videoes which made me think it was possibly an uncommon trip. Any experiences anyone would share? I'm not planning to attempt it at the moment, just curious.

I have done it in a proper boat but not a narrowboat ( floating skip ) I was going to do it in my seventy foot narrowboat and went up the Trent to do it before being informed I could go thro Thorne Lock thus not having to do the falls in my narrowboat. I take it you boat is over seventy feet long or you are just a masochist?

[embis]

9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I take it you boat is over seventy feet long or you are just a masochist?

My boat is 55ft, whats the advantage to a longer boat in these circumstances?

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, embis said:

My boat is 55ft, whats the advantage to a longer boat in these circumstances?

Think mrsmelly was suggesting if your boat is shorter than 70ft the other route option is possibility less demanding. 

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Think mrsmelly was suggesting if your boat is shorter than 70ft the other route option is possibility less demanding. 

Precisely. The only need to do Trent falls is to get to such as for instance the A and C which over seventy feet is the only way to get to it from the midlands. Risking the falls on a 55 footer would be unnecesary. 

[PhilAtterley]

Tony Dunkley

• Tony Dunkley
• 
• Member
•  487
• 3,298 posts
•  
•  On 10/19/2010 at 10:10, canaldrifter said:
• "Of course you don't attempt it in bad weather or fog. But, as long as you are prepared to sit on the mud and wait for the incoming tide if you go aground, I don't see that it is in any way dangerous for a narrowboat. Lets face it, the local narrowboaters do the Humber to the River Hull often enough." 
• ____________________________________________________________________________________________

You've identified there the circumstances when a narrowboat is probably most likely to come to grief in the Humber or lower Ouse and Trent. Grounding and then waiting for the next tide certainly isn't a problem, but the arrival of that next tide may turn into a potentially very dangerous situation, depending on whether you've sat down on mud or sand and if the tides at that time are big Springs which start running up at a very brisk pace right from the first of the flood.

Narrowboats, like any flat bottomed vessel, can 'suck in' to soft mud when drying out and then fail to lift before getting swamped on the on the next tide. A few hard bursts of ahead and astern are likely to do the trick, but, depending on such as freeboard and hull openings, there can be no guarantees.

If you've grounded on a big tide and get swung beam on to the flood as you float free, particularly on the outer end of a sandbank, a vessel with so narrow a beam and probably very small GM could be rolled over by the force of the incoming tide.

I would suggest limiting passage by narrowboat in these waters to the times around the smallest Neaps, when the first of the flood is nothing more than a gentle and slow rise in water level, which will neither try to roll you over nor swamp you before you can get free if you're in soft mud. Of course, both these potential dangers can be much reduced, but never completely eliminated, if you're with someone who has sufficiently good, and very importantly up to date local knowledge to avoid grounding in the first place. The fact that there has not yet been, as far as I am aware, any really serious mishap with a narrowboat in this area, doesn't mean that they are suitable or safe vessels for use in these waters. You can get away with walking across the M1, but it doesn't make it a safe or advisable thing to do.

Edited October 2, 2014 by tony dunkley

•  

Tony.

A. K. Dunkley Canal & River Transport Services, Nottingham (Est. 1968)

Commercial vessel operators and Marine engineers                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Edited May 15, 2017 by PhilAtterley

[embis]

8 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Think mrsmelly was suggesting if your boat is shorter than 70ft the other route option is possibility less demanding. 

Ahhh, yes I see. I realise that there is another way around. But what I am interested in are the particular challenges of this route.

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, embis said:

Ahhh, yes I see. I realise that there is another way around. But what I am interested in are the particular challenges of this route.

There is a good thread on here started inj 2010 by Dr Bradley I think re doing the Falls. Google is your friend. 

[embis]

3 minutes ago, PhilAtterley said:

 

 

The fact that there has not yet been, as far as I am aware, any really serious mishap with a narrowboat in this area, doesn't mean that they are suitable or safe vessels for use in these waters. You can get away with walking across the M1, but it doesn't make it a safe or advisable thing to do.

Edited October 2, 2014 by tony dunkley

•  

Tony.

A. K. Dunkley Canal & River Transport Services, Nottingham (Est. 1968)

Commercial vessel operators and Marine engineers 

Thanks Tony, That is what I was after, and now I dont think its a trip I will make!

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, embis said:

Ahhh, yes I see. I realise that there is another way around. But what I am interested in are the particular challenges of this route.

I would also make a fone call to insurance company to ENSURE you are covered. My policy for instance says I am covered for connecting tidal waterways but the wording is more complex than that and I would check as they may say you have taken a risk not needed in a 55 foot boat and could have gone the other way to reach your destination whereas they may be more accepting if your boat was of a length that HAD to go that way. Just sayin like its worth a 2 pence fone call as we all know insurance companies love wriggling out of paying up.

[embis]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I would also make a fone call to insurance company to ENSURE you are covered. .

Yes, thats a very good point, but it does seem a particularly hazardous passage so I think I will just enjoy reading about it! rather than undertake it myself.

Edited May 15, 2017 by embis

[billh]

On 5/15/2017 at 08:43, mrsmelly said:

I have done it in a proper boat but not a narrowboat ( floating skip ) I was going to do it in my seventy foot narrowboat and went up the Trent to do it before being informed I could go thro Thorne Lock thus not having to do the falls in my narrowboat. I take it you boat is over seventy feet long or you are just a masochist?

Are you saying up to 70ft narrowboat can pass Thorne Lock?

C&RT say this:

"Note: Through passage is limited by Thorne Lock. For the Bramwith to Thorne section, dimensions are as for the main line to Rotherham. Passage from River Trent To Thorne is limited by Keadby Lock 23.67m x 6.86m (77ft x 22ft 6ins) although longer craft can be admitted when the tide makes a level. 2.Narrowboats up to about 18.79m (61ft 8ins) can pass through Thorne Lock diagonally. "

So which is right?

We went to York via Trent Falls  25 years ago with  a 70ft wooden boat , passage via Thorne was not possible then (we detoured to Thorne to try it),has something changed?There was a slight campaign in those days to get the lock lengthened, but I don't think anything came of it.

Sorry if I misunderstood your posting.

Bill

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Thorne lock hasn't changed. 70' isn't going to fit. Some a bit longer than 60' can fit diagonally. Don't know the upper limit. Bramwith lock, the next one up was lengthened for coal boats from the colliery by Stainforth, but these boats went the other direction, so there wasn't a need to extend Thorne lock.

Jen

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, billh said:

Are you saying up to 70ft narrowboat can pass Thorne Lock?

C&RT say this:

"Note: Through passage is limited by Thorne Lock. For the Bramwith to Thorne section, dimensions are as for the main line to Rotherham. Passage from River Trent To Thorne is limited by Keadby Lock 23.67m x 6.86m (77ft x 22ft 6ins) although longer craft can be admitted when the tide makes a level. 2.Narrowboats up to about 18.79m (61ft 8ins) can pass through Thorne Lock diagonally. "

So which is right?

We went to York via Trent Falls  25 years ago with  a 70ft wooden boat , passage via Thorne was not possible then (we detoured to Thorne to try it),has something changed?There was a slight campaign in those days to get the lock lengthened, but I don't think anything came of it.

Sorry if I misunderstood your posting.

Bill

Hi Bill

I dont think the lock has been lengthened but cannot be sure of that. I went up it and down it  in my seventy foot Hudson, we were touching both ends on the diagonal. The bottom gates work independantly of each other enabling us to shove the stern across behind one gate. As usual CART and other publications have it way out and the best way to find out individual pinch points on the canal system now adays are forums such as this. If my boat of course was exactly seventy feet or not I dont know because how accurate are todays boatbuilders? in any case another inch or so and we couldnt have got through.

 

Cheers

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Thorne lock hasn't changed. 70' isn't going to fit. Some a bit longer than 60' can fit diagonally. Don't know the upper limit. Bramwith lock, the next one up was lengthened for coal boats from the colliery by Stainforth, but these boats went the other direction, so there wasn't a need to extend Thorne lock.

Jen

Sorry but you are wrong I have personaly been through in my seventy footer.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Hi Bill

I dont think the lock has been lengthened but cannot be sure of that. I went up it and down it  in my seventy foot Hudson, we were touching both ends on the diagonal. The bottom gates work independantly of each other enabling us to shove the stern across behind one gate. As usual CART and other publications have it way out and the best way to find out individual pinch points on the canal system now adays are forums such as this. If my boat of course was exactly seventy feet or not I dont know because how accurate are todays boatbuilders? in any case another inch or so and we couldnt have got through.

 

Cheers

Sorry but you are wrong I have personaly been through in my seventy footer.

I stand corrected. Always looked too short to me. As you say it has independently operated hydraulic gates that give more options.

[mrsmelly]

Just now, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I stand corrected. Always looked too short to me. As you say it has independently operated hydraulic gates that give more options.

Yes I was of the same frame of mind but someone told me they had done it so I took the risk of going up there and was well chuffed it worked. Coming downhill I winded at the top and came down backwards to avoid the sill.

[PhilAtterley]

15 minutes ago, billh said:

Are you saying up to 70ft narrowboat can pass Thorne Lock?

C&RT say this:

"Note: Through passage is limited by Thorne Lock. For the Bramwith to Thorne section, dimensions are as for the main line to Rotherham. Passage from River Trent To Thorne is limited by Keadby Lock 23.67m x 6.86m (77ft x 22ft 6ins) although longer craft can be admitted when the tide makes a level. 2.Narrowboats up to about 18.79m (61ft 8ins) can pass through Thorne Lock diagonally. "

So which is right?

We went to York via Trent Falls  25 years ago with  a 70ft wooden boat , passage via Thorne was not possible then (we detoured to Thorne to try it),has something changed?There was a slight campaign in those days to get the lock lengthened, but I don't think anything came of it.

Sorry if I misunderstood your posting.

Bill

Those figures from BW / CRT are hopelessly wrong - Thorne Lock was built to take Sheffield size which is 61' 6'' x 15' 6'',  and that figure of 77' long for Keadby is for the flood lock (the set of gates for when the river is higher than the Cut) - the other set of gates will pen a Trent size barge which is 82' 6''.

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, PhilAtterley said:

Those figures from BW / CRT are hopelessly wrong - Thorne Lock was built to take Sheffield size which is 61' 6'' x 15' 6'',  and that figure of 77' long for Keadby is for the flood lock (the set of gates for when the river is higher than the Cut) - the other set of gates will pen a Trent size barge which is 82' 6''.

You are so right. There are many places I have been over the years were inacuracies abound on the system, this is why first hand local knowledge on such as this forum is brilliant, especialy when down to stuff as important as PUBS 

[PhilAtterley]

In a 2016 topic on here, Tony Dunkley posted this advice about getting through Thorne Lock with boats that BW / CRT say are too big to fit :- 

You will obviously need to be very careful at Thorne, because you will have very little margin for error, but the lock is a fairly generous 'Sheffield size' length and a few feet wider than normal 'Sheffield size' width, . . . I can't remember the exact width, and I can't find my old notebook from about 12 years ago with the measurements I took before going that way round back to the Trent with the BW Dredger, but the Dredger was 67' [overall length with the buckets raised up clear of the water for travelling] x 14' 6'' wide and it penned laying straight down the middle of the lock, with the bottom tumbler and the buckets just an inch or two off the bottom gate walkways and the engineroom/cabin end just an inch or two off the top gates.

 

I would suggest that you operate the lock at least once, draining it right down from full, without the boat in it before penning, so you'll know just how slowly you can drain down [using one sluice, all or just part raised] and how quickly all the sluices can be closed or raised should it become necessary to do so, . . you can also check the rate of leakage through the bottom gates, and how quickly the water level starts to fall with the top gates and the sluices at both ends shut.

Whilst you've got the lock drained right down without the boat in it, have a poke around at the top cill with a boathook so you'll know the shape of it and how far into the chamber it comes, and the depth left over it with the lock drained all the way down.

When you've got the boat into the lock, and the top gates shut, get some lines ashore at both ends [more than one if needs be] and get the boat positioned with no slack in the lines, and the lines made off with nothing more than a good few turns that can be taken off and slacked away with the rope under tension as the level drops.

Early morning, before there's anybody much about, would probably be your best time for doing this, . . . the last thing you need is some well meaning involvement from others distracting you from what you're doing, or even joining in and doing something that you weren't expecting, and at just the wrong moment.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

  

 Tony.
A. K. Dunkley Canal & River Transport Services, Nottingham (Est. 1968)Commercial vessel operators and Marine engineers

 

Edit to add : I have tried to get rid of the two quote boxes above, but they don't seem to want to go away.

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2017 by PhilAtterley

[rusty69]

8 minutes ago, PhilAtterley said:

In a 2016 thread Tony Dunkley posted this advice about getting through Thorne Lock with boats that BW / CRT say won't fit :-

 

 

You will obviously need to be very careful at Thorne, because you will have very little margin for error, but the lock is a fairly generous 'Sheffield size' length and a few feet wider than normal 'Sheffield size' width, . . . I can't remember the exact width, and I can't find my old notebook from about 12 years ago with the measurements I took before going that way round back to the Trent with the BW Dredger, but the Dredger was 67' [overall length with the buckets raised up clear of the water for travelling] x 14' 6'' wide and it penned laying straight down the middle of the lock, with the bottom tumbler and the buckets just an inch or two off the bottom gate walkways and the engineroom/cabin end just an inch or two off the top gates.

 

I would suggest that you operate the lock at least once, draining it right down from full, without the boat in it before penning, so you'll know just how slowly you can drain down [using one sluice, all or just part raised] and how quickly all the sluices can be closed or raised should it become necessary to do so, . . you can also check the rate of leakage through the bottom gates, and how quickly the water level starts to fall with the top gates and the sluices at both ends shut.

Whilst you've got the lock drained right down without the boat in it, have a poke around at the top cill with a boathook so you'll know the shape of it and how far into the chamber it comes, and the depth left over it with the lock drained all the way down.

When you've got the boat into the lock, and the top gates shut, get some lines ashore at both ends [more than one if needs be] and get the boat positioned with no slack in the lines, and the lines made off with nothing more than a good few turns that can be taken off and slacked away with the rope under tension as the level drops.

Early morning, before there's anybody much about, would probably be your best time for doing this, . . . the last thing you need is some well meaning involvement from others distracting you from what you're doing, or even joining in and doing something that you weren't expecting, and at just the wrong moment.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

Tony.
A. K. Dunkley Canal & River Transport Services, Nottingham (Est. 1968)Commercial vessel operators and Marine engineers

Wish I had this info and was brave enough to attempt it in our 69'6" narrowboat when we visited the mighty Trent. 

I did contemplate Trent Falls briefly before tucking  tail between legs and running for the safety and tranquility  of the inland waterways once again. 

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Wish I had this info and was brave enough to attempt it in our 69'6" narrowboat when we visited the mighty Trent. 

I did contemplate Trent Falls briefly before tucking  tail between legs and running for the safety and tranquility  of the inland waterways once again. 

Yes many people I feel have missed out the fab a/c selby, ouse York etc due to not knowing a seventy footer will actualy fit thorne. A piddly 69 and arfer would be a doddle.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes many people I feel have missed out the fab a/c selby, ouse York etc due to not knowing a seventy footer will actualy fit thorne. A piddly 69 and arfer would be a doddle.

Maybe next time! 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Maybe next time! 

I suggest you do. The trip along and onto the Aire and the Calder and beyond is great and going up to York is fab. Up to Ripon is even fabber but you wont do it in your boat.