Newbie with a DIY Urge

[The Grumpy Triker]

Hi all,

Still waiting for the survey but lots of time for reading on here and getting the DIY bug for my future live-a-board.....all of this is subject to survey but....

I quite fancy doing the blacking myself, never tried before but read up loads on here so could be fun...the yard at which the out of water survey will be done will not allow me to do it there as they don't have a lot of room and insurance won't cover me ....hmmmm, probably true but equally convenient....or will nowhere allow me to do it?

Should I even consider doing it for it's first blacking after sitting for a year or two prior to my purchase?

the paintwork needs work as well but I figured start at the top, and the top side edges along the length need some attention as do other smaller stretches of paint. Am I allow to do sanding and paint removal on the canal......provided that it stays on board, or is a small amount of light dust from sanding specific areas?

So much I want to do but know I have to take advice, breathe, count to ten, and sometimes open the wallet a little wider.

Many thanks all,

TGT

[rusty69]

Been diy blacking our narrowboat for last 18 years. I wouldn't describe it as fun. Some yards will hire their pressure washer, some won't.

 

Some will allow you to stay onboard, some wont.

If you really fancy diy, shop around, somewhere will accommodate you. It is a good chance to get a close look at your boat.

Highly recommend doing it at least once. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by rusty69

[dmr]

Lots of places allow DIY blacking, and every boater should black their own boat at least once.   Good to have somebody who has done it before to give help and advice, biggest problem is to know what level of preparation is required, if you overdo it and get back to bare shiny metal it can be counter productive.

Some boaters do major sand and paint jobs on the canalside though I always try to minimise the amount of paint dust that goes into the cut. Most dry docks drain back into the cut and many don't worry too much about cleaning between jobs.

.........Dave

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Been diy blacking our narrowboat for last 18 years. I wouldn't describe it as fun. Some yards will hire their pressure washer, some won't.

 

Some will allow you to stay onboard, some wont.

If you really fancy diy, shop around, somewhere will accommodate you. It is a good chance to get a close look at your boat.

Highly recommend doing it at least once. 

Slow learners here, did it twice before we realised its better to pay a yard to do it. We live on the boat during work so always know that a good job is done.

Some yards set prices such that a DIY job does really make good financial sense.

................Dave

[The Grumpy Triker]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Been diy blacking our narrowboat for last 18 years. I wouldn't describe it as fun. Some yards will hire their pressure washer, some won't.

 

Some will allow you to stay onboard, some wont.

If you really fancy diy, shop around, somewhere will accommodate you. It is a good chance to get a close look at your boat.

Highly recommend doing it at least once. 

Thanks for that, as a live-a-board I want to do more stuff to the but but no knowledge of cans & can'ts + will and won't's etc.

Really fancy having a go so glad to hear some will loan a washer out and more importantly let me stay on board.

cheers rusty

[The Grumpy Triker]

11 minutes ago, dmr said:

Lots of places allow DIY blacking, and every boater should black their own boat at least once.   Good to have somebody who has done it before to give help and advice, biggest problem is to know what level of preparation is required, if you overdo it and get back to bare shiny metal it can be counter productive.

Some boaters do major sand and paint jobs on the canalside though I always try to minimise the amount of paint dust that goes into the cut. Most dry docks drain back into the cut and many don't worry too much about cleaning between jobs.

.........Dave

Cheers Dave & co.

Would be concerned about dumping paint in the water so maybe don't worry about a bit of light dust them :-)

The worry I have about blacking is that I hear about the prep, leave a day, thin coat, leave a day, thick coat, leave a day, thick coat again leave 48 hours.

Is that over the top and do the yards really do that?....Several posters suggest they wash,  blacken and refloat in 24-48 hours.

Any recommendations on expectations?

[rusty69]

13 minutes ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

Cheers Dave & co.

Would be concerned about dumping paint in the water so maybe don't worry about a bit of light dust them :-)

The worry I have about blacking is that I hear about the prep, leave a day, thin coat, leave a day, thick coat, leave a day, thick coat again leave 48 hours.

Is that over the top and do the yards really do that?....Several posters suggest they wash,  blacken and refloat in 24-48 hours.

Any recommendations on expectations?

Two of us. Scrape the boat whilst still wet and pressure  wash first day. Second day apply one coat. Third  day apply secondcoat. Then once again around the water line. Allow a minimum of 48 hours before refloating after final coat. 

 

We tend to black the base plate too when i feel up to it and access is possible, although we have an older boat. 

 

 

Good scrapers make the job a lot easier imo

 

Dont forget to check anodes, prop shaft and prop and stern gland whilst out of the water. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by rusty69

[The Grumpy Triker]

15 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Two of us. Scrape the boat whilst still wet and pressure  wash first day. Second day apply one coat. Third  day apply secondcoat. Then once again around the water line. Allow a minimum of 48 hours before refloating after final coat. 

 

We tend to black the base plate too when i feel up to it and access is possible, although we have an older boat. 

 

 

Good scrapers make the job a lot easier imo

 

Dont forget to check anodes, prop shaft and prop and stern gland whilst out of the water. 

Sounds like my earlier searches were about right then, seen so many differing opinions on the baseplate, some saying don't do it!...wondered why but thought I'd ask surveyor in. Couple of weeks.

Going to fit anodes as don't think it has any, 6 for a 60' ....is that about right?

.....also wondered whether reed choppers or shredders were commonplace around the prop, or of this was a fancy extra?

[David Mack]

37 minutes ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

 

Really fancy having a go so glad to hear some will loan a washer out and more importantly let me stay on board.

Tell us where you are and someone will know of a local yard or drydock which will allow you to DIY and stay on board.

[The Grumpy Triker]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Tell us where you are and someone will know of a local yard or drydock which will allow you to DIY and stay on board.

Hi David,

IF & only IF all is ok it will be from (& I whisper for some on here :-) ) Great Hayward but will be taking it down the Severn either before, after or during....Am not sure that doing it at the same place as the survey (despite the crane out costs) is wise, or maybe I should just get the first one done at the same time and then do it myself after a year or two'S experience.

on that note I was allowing for 30 miles a day to get it from one place to another but I count locks as being 45 minutes per lock.....so 11 miles plus 5 locks in a day ...but before the summer holiday season is in full flow....is this a bit optimistic?

[rusty69]

8 minutes ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

Sounds like my earlier searches were about right then, seen so many differing opinions on the baseplate, some saying don't do it!...wondered why but thought I'd ask surveyor in. Couple of weeks.

Going to fit anodes as don't think it has any, 6 for a 60' ....is that about right?

.....also wondered whether reed choppers or shredders were commonplace around the prop, or of this was a fancy extra?

Some do some dont. The baseplate will be less affected than the waterline. I try to do ours as its 6mm and i figure better to have gunk in the pits than nothing. 

 

If you decide to do your baseplate, make sure you pick a yard with adequate access. 

 

Six anodes will be better than four. You may have to get some thin ones for the middle of the boat so they don't get knocked off in the locks.

 

Can't help with the last point, i don't have one. 

[Rob-M]

9 minutes ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

Hi David,

IF & only IF all is ok it will be from (& I whisper for some on here :-) ) Great Hayward but will be taking it down the Severn either before, after or during....Am not sure that doing it at the same place as the survey (despite the crane out costs) is wise, or maybe I should just get the first one done at the same time and then do it myself after a year or two'S experience.

on that note I was allowing for 30 miles a day to get it from one place to another but I count locks as being 45 minutes per lock.....so 11 miles plus 5 locks in a day ...but before the summer holiday season is in full flow....is this a bit optimistic?

A general rule of thumb is to add the number of locks to the number of miles and divide by 3 to get the number of hours.

[The Grumpy Triker]

11 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Some do some dont. The baseplate will be less affected than the waterline. I try to do ours as its 6mm and i figure better to have gunk in the pits than nothing. 

 

If you decide to do your baseplate, make sure you pick a yard with adequate access. 

 

Six anodes will be better than four. You may have to get some thin ones for the middle of the boat so they don't get knocked off in the locks.

 

Can't help with the last point, i don't have one. 

Cheers again....I wondered why you wouldn't do the baseplate but would all else, although I guess thickness should be better and less of a battering.

[Rob-M]

Capricorn or Mr. Jingles...?

[The Grumpy Triker]

3 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

A general rule of thumb is to add the number of locks to the number of miles and divide by 3 to get the number of hours.

Excellent! Thanks for that :-) thought there should be an easy rule of thumb, think I am not too far out then.....more by luck than judgement :-)

Time to pop to the pub for a beer with books and notepad and pen etc. :-)

[Neil2]

You could always go for a 21st century solution to preserving your hull, bitumen based blacking is vulnerable to diesel spills which are becoming more and more common.  If you are prepared to go to the expense of having the hull grit blasted it opens up a lot more possibilities, all of which are preferable to bitumen.

Most folk don't black the baseplate because it's a swine of a job.   The popular notion that baseplates don't rust is not born out by the legions of boats with overplated bottoms although in the modern era 10mm baseplates offer a fair measure of protection before corrosion becomes a serious issue.  

For route time estimating if you use the CanalPlan website https://canalplan.eu/ on the default setting you won't be far out. 

[The Grumpy Triker]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

Capricorn or Mr. Jingles...?

English Rose :-)

 

cheers Neil2...did wonder about the alternative but not found a big run for it and concerned that it will need grit blasting at every repaint...or will it cope with a clean and fresh layers.....is it a professional only job or can I do a DIY?...just things that float through my mind when I put down the + & - in a list...sits both sides atm

[cuthound]

11 hours ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

 

.....also wondered whether reed choppers or shredders were commonplace around the prop, or of this was a fancy extra?

When having my boat surveyed, it was found to be fitted with a "prop protector".

In 3 years I have only been down the weedhatch twice. Once when I picked something up in a bridge hole.  By the time I stopped and opened the weedhatch,  whatever it was had been removed by the prop protector.

The second time I got something round the prop, it stalled the engine. It turned out to be a full sized cratch cover. The prop protector had no hope.

The only drawback is the edges are quite sharp, so you need to be careful when feeling around the prop.

[Neil2]

9 hours ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

English Rose :-)

 

cheers Neil2...did wonder about the alternative but not found a big run for it and concerned that it will need grit blasting at every repaint...or will it cope with a clean and fresh layers.....is it a professional only job or can I do a DIY?...just things that float through my mind when I put down the + & - in a list...sits both sides atm

It depends what option you choose.  The most basic solution would be Comastic which is like blacking but not bitumen based so it doesn't dissolve in fuel spills like conventional blacking.   I don't know how often folk re-black their boats if it's Comastic but I would expect it to be more durable.  Epoxy coatings are supposed to be good for five- seven years though I suspect will last longer on most narrowboats.  Cold or hot applied zinc coatings, there's not really enough evidence yet but hot sprayed zinc is supposed to last at least 15 years.  The advantage of these more high tech coatings is once it's done it's done, you might expect to do a bit of touching up from time to time but you wouldn't expect to have to go through the grit blasting process again for a very long time.  

Some argue that the routine blacking process does force you to remove the boat from the water every couple of years which is good practice, but you will see plenty of boats out on the cut that are rusting away at the waterline because the owner has put it off for another year.  To do the job properly means the boat is out on the hard for three days minimum.  Hand it over to the yard/marina they might have it in and out in the same day, waste of money.  We all have different opinions on this I preferred to take the route that involves a fair amount of initial expense to avoid the expense and hassle of reblacking every 2/3 years, and because I don't trust bitumen coatings. Others take a different view, you can make up your own mind.         

[Sea Dog]

Allow for rain. Last time mine was out, the usual week's charge gave me a fortnight on the hard due to the yard manager's holiday. We did a thorough job, including 3 full coats and 4 at the waterline, plus tunnel bands and the gunnels... and just made it! The blacking alone would have been a real struggle in week 1. Three days might work in theory and possibly also in practice if the weather is kind. 24-48 hours? Not even downhill with a following wind - it might look black, but it won't have been properly done in my opinion.

[Peter X]

18 hours ago, Neil2 said:

...

For route time estimating if you use the CanalPlan website https://canalplan.eu/ on the default setting you won't be far out. 

It seems to allow 10-12 minutes per lock, but I've found it works well if you have competent crew. If not, or you're single handed, the conventional formula of allowing 20 minutes per lock is more realistic. Also, an average cruising speed of 3mph is fine for most canals (probably including the OP's trip on the Staffs & Worcs) but on a canal that has more moored boats (mostly in the south), 2 or 2.5mph would be more like it.

Canalplan is good for playing with options such as hours per day; in June you get a lot more daylight of course, and provided you and your crew are up for it it's quite possible to do 12 hours per day. If you want to do a trip quickly, the key is to get up early and keep going, eating on the move.

[The Grumpy Triker]

9 hours ago, Neil2 said:

It depends what option you choose.  The most basic solution would be Comastic which is like blacking but not bitumen based so it doesn't dissolve in fuel spills like conventional blacking.   I don't know how often folk re-black their boats if it's Comastic but I would expect it to be more durable.  Epoxy coatings are supposed to be good for five- seven years though I suspect will last longer on most narrowboats.  Cold or hot applied zinc coatings, there's not really enough evidence yet but hot sprayed zinc is supposed to last at least 15 years.  The advantage of these more high tech coatings is once it's done it's done, you might expect to do a bit of touching up from time to time but you wouldn't expect to have to go through the grit blasting process again for a very long time.  

Some argue that the routine blacking process does force you to remove the boat from the water every couple of years which is good practice, but you will see plenty of boats out on the cut that are rusting away at the waterline because the owner has put it off for another year.  To do the job properly means the boat is out on the hard for three days minimum.  Hand it over to the yard/marina they might have it in and out in the same day, waste of money.  We all have different opinions on this I preferred to take the route that involves a fair amount of initial expense to avoid the expense and hassle of reblacking every 2/3 years, and because I don't trust bitumen coatings. Others take a different view, you can make up your own mind.         

Cheers again Neil, good to have options to think through, will have a bit time to read back through it all before I have to make a choice for certain.

5 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Allow for rain. Last time mine was out, the usual week's charge gave me a fortnight on the hard due to the yard manager's holiday. We did a thorough job, including 3 full coats and 4 at the waterline, plus tunnel bands and the gunnels... and just made it! The blacking alone would have been a real struggle in week 1. Three days might work in theory and possibly also in practice if the weather is kind. 24-48 hours? Not even downhill with a following wind - it might look black, but it won't have been properly done in my opinion.

Hey there Sea Dog, good point, surely you don't expect rain in the U.K.!?...be lucky if we have any water in the canals this year :-)

[The Grumpy Triker]

1 hour ago, Peter X said:

It seems to allow 10-12 minutes per lock, but I've found it works well if you have competent crew. If not, or you're single handed, the conventional formula of allowing 20 minutes per lock is more realistic. Also, an average cruising speed of 3mph is fine for most canals (probably including the OP's trip on the Staffs & Worcs) but on a canal that has more moored boats (mostly in the south), 2 or 2.5mph would be more like it.

Canalplan is good for playing with options such as hours per day; in June you get a lot more daylight of course, and provided you and your crew are up for it it's quite possible to do 12 hours per day. If you want to do a trip quickly, the key is to get up early and keep going, eating on the move.

Cheers Peter, I'all certainly give canalplan a look thanks both, think I had hoped for too fast a speed although I did do this thinking that if I plan for an 8 hour day then I do have an hour or three to play with for flexibility (lock times allowing) not sure if I will be soloing on L-Plates or if I can find a scurvy crew of 2 to help...ideally 1 with experience 

[Sea Dog]

26 minutes ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

If you want to do a trip quickly, the key is to get up early and keep going, eating on the move.

Au contraire, mon brave (or was than another thread?): if you want to do a trip quickly, don't go by Narrowboat. Your method is doing a trip slowly, but for longer! 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Sea Dog
Typing

[The Grumpy Triker]

1 minute ago, Sea Dog said:

Au contraire, mon brave (or was than another thread?): if you want to do a trip quickly, don't go by Narrowboat!

:-) good point! ...I do need quicker than slow but not as fast as ambling

one thing I can't find, are there any rules for what can and can't be painted on the side of the boat?....within bounds of decency I should add. Are you allowed national flags fluttering or coat of arms etc. Just trying to think of items that may not be considered public property etc. 

Have a load of different ideas for the Boat Name picture but not sure if any are out of bounds for the waterways.....really naive question I know