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Advice needed (not a narrow boat)


Calranthe

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1 minute ago, LadyG said:

last question, where is the forum for liveaboards, I have had enough of this.

There are many liveaboards who post on this forum. Perhaps if you don't like the advice they are offering, you either don't agree with it, or don't understand it. 

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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Not unless challenged; someone wanted to cruise the Crinan canal, and really its only a trickle of water with some obstacles, its a means to an end. I mentioned it cos someone said I had no "experience" of canals, as though this was some mysterious activity only those in "the know" can understand 

The Crinan Canal is a (small) ship canal and nothing like the Grand Union or the Trent & Mersey, neither of which you seem to have any experience of, and is not comparable to either.

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

what I said was

"This has really put me off the BMC, far too complex... "

Yes, precisely that. A wildly inaccurate statement made from a position of ignorance. I repeat what I and others have said - there is nothing complex about a BMC, they are a most straightforward (if old) Diesel engine. Certainly no more complex than a Yanmar. 

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

I am not arguing with anyone, they are arguing with me because I dare to comment.

No, it is because you make incorrect statements written from a position of ignorance. If you had written "The BMC appears from this thread to be quite complex, is that correct?" then you could have learned something. 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ok - I knew that, but just get to wondering why 'having a residential mooring and payment of CT' becomes such a burning issue such that you need to comment when it is totally irrelevant to either your experiences or, future needs.

I am responding to chat, its called conversation.

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1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

There are many liveaboards who post on this forum. Perhaps if you don't like the advice they are offering, you either don't agree with it, or don't understand it. 

But Lady G already knows everything. She's watched YouTube an' all. 

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

I did not stick my oar in, I just passed comment, I don't know why you get so upset, I thought you wanted to know if I had "the balls" for boating.

  f=ma, but at 4mph, there is not too much of either, yes I did the physics of two converging vessels, and overtaking vessels, and prop walk, and so on [Ive got a Certificate!], every boat handles differently, but it does not take long to get the basics, otherwise there would be no canal hire companies.  Experience  comes with experience, does not mean I cant use knowledge from my past experience  to handle a boat on a canal. Does not mean I cant use instruction to accelerate the learning process.

You did stick your oar into a topic that had very little to do with you and what you said was ill-informed to say the least. It was not your only ill-informed comment/discussion in my view. I do not understand you comment about balls.

This is the second time within 24 hours that you state the you understand prop walk. I would say that on most of the NARROWBOATS that you have been looking at prop walk will only have a significant effect on handling is when reversing and stopping in an emergency.

Such boats typically have about a 20" sternpost and that implies a 16" diameter prop or less. The boat will weight roughly 1 ton per metre or a little less so we are talking about a 12 to 15 ton boat that is shaped like a long keel. The lateral resistance the boat shape gives (not in the least caused by the bottom of the hull floating in mud slurry) plus the inertia of the hull combine to make prop walk not very marked at typical canal speeds although it will appear at high revs when stopping.

Trying to kick the stern in with a burst of reverse is more likely to produce a wedge of water between the stern swim and bank/lockside that easily overcomes prop walk and kicks the stern out.

Although as you say, these things vary a bit from boat to boat but in my experience its pretty typical.

I have yet to see any indication that you really do understand the interaction between typical narrowboat hulls, the propeller, and the canal bed. If you get too close to the side of the channel the prop will suck the stern towards the bank and even full rudder may not be enough to overcome this. This effect can be  very marked and does not seem directly dependent upon speed. The problem is that you can very rarely see the canal bed so you have to guess where the channel is.

Likewise you may well understand the hydrodynamic forces acting on two boats passing each other but I have seen no indication that you appreciate just how much the hull shape and canal dimensions enhance those forces.

On many canals 2 to 3 mph is fast, let alone 4 mph. 4 mph is likely to get you wedged across the canal in many cases.

 

 

 

Edited by Tony Brooks
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21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

You did stick your oar into a topic that had very little to do with you and what you said was ill-informed to say the least. It was not your only ill-informed

Oops I didn't realise that was a no no. I've been doing that for years. :)

Edited by rusty69
Changed this to that
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4 hours ago, LadyG said:

If you are arrested one night you cant give a "steetaddress", and  if you are using the "streetaddress", it will be flagged up as "not your place of residence". Having an address and a residence is two different things.

It must be  a problem, as if one takes a Residential Mooring , ie with planning permission, you get a postcode, but if you have a marina mooring , a non redsidential mooring you do not get one. If you have a residential mooring you need to pay .

Council tax

Marina fees

C&RT fees,

thats £4 to 10K, so essentially, it becomes uneconomic.

I am not creating obstacles, its not as easy as handing over the keys to my house, and handing over the cash to a boat owner the same day. I dont get any cash till the day I hand over the keys, but I have to spend a lot of cash on selling the property. And another £4/5K on puting a [non return] deposit plus survey etc] all in all I need a purse of £6-7K, and most of that would be lost if something happrned to the house transaction.

The alternative is not to market the property but to sell it cash, then you get 70 to 80% of market value.

it will take three months to sell a house, and in the meantime I have to spend cash to get it ready for market, its cash, cash cash.

I have sold several houses, and there are often glitches, and often on the day. 

most liveaboards prefer to use the address of a relative or friend, then they have a sort of "official link" to a place. One does not want to become a homeless person.

Hmm, just as a matter of interest, the marina that I moor at is residential but we pay no council tax.

Phil 

 

 

 

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As for Kathleen, she is both an Angel and Devil when talking about piloting, will take a while for me to fully get the handle on her (once we have it at Aston I plan to do a lot of none lock simple jaunts down the long none lock section we have there) my experience for now is she reacts sometimes almost like a direct line of force but the steering is so responsive that you end up in a very shallow zig zag movement as you keep bringing her back on point and she slips the other way, even with tiny movements of the steering she has just a small amount of lag but very responsive, Peter X was just getting the hang on it and I felt like I was trying to keep a ballon in the air.

 

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that is typical of many wheel steered boats. It somehow seems easier to me to keep a tiller steered boats in a straight line. You will get used to it as long as there is not too much free play in the steering.

I tried steering a mate's Norman once - I zig-zagged all the way down the cut and gave the wheel back to him pronto. I'm sure there's a knack to it but it wasn't one that I had. 

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38 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I tried steering a mate's Norman once - I zig-zagged all the way down the cut and gave the wheel back to him pronto. I'm sure there's a knack to it but it wasn't one that I had. 

My wife steers a boat with a wheel much better than I do, I have been use to a tiller since I was 13, thats a long while now.

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My first go on a small wheel-steered boat (Freeman 22) was hilarious for the first mile or so- it was much quicker and more responsive than a heavier, tiller-steered boat, lots of zig-zagging. I was on my own but got to grips with it fairly quickly and found it great fun!

When I got it to where it was going and handed over the keys, they turned out to be the wrong set despite my arguing that they couldn't possibly be because they started the engine! Turned out, I'd come out with one of the spare sets from my own boat and the key that opens the padlock of the control panel had just neatly fit in the Freeman's engine ignition and started it with no hassle!!

 

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4 hours ago, Calranthe said:

 the steering is so responsive that you end up in a very shallow zig zag movement as you keep bringing her back on point and she slips the other way

 

Under low power the tendency to wander is not unusual for a single engined sterndrive boat . You will eventually learn how to correct it instinctively.  When it is  safe to do so try leaving the steering alone and the boat may correct itself........ but not always.  

A little wind indicator flag on the bow - or even a ribbon attached to the rail- may be a good investment in order to see which way the wind may be taking the bow - all the weight is near the stern so the wind may easily catch hold of the bow.

 

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7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

A little wind indicator flag on the bow - or even a ribbon attached to the rail- may be a good investment in order to see which way the wind may be taking the bow...

An Ensign!

:::coat:::

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Under low power the tendency to wander is not unusual for a single engined sterndrive boat . You will eventually learn how to correct it instinctively.  When it is  safe to do so try leaving the steering alone and the boat may correct itself........ but not always.  

A little wind indicator flag on the bow - or even a ribbon attached to the rail- may be a good investment in order to see which way the wind may be taking the bow - all the weight is near the stern so the wind may easily catch hold of the bow.

 

That reminds me.

When I was on the Thames hire fleet I cam et the conclusion that the rudders on the smaller GRP boats were really too small. I felt the boats were inherently directionally unstable while the rudder was used to nudge the hull in the right direction by the prop wash. Our larger boats both wood and GRP had much larger rudders and they would steer in neutral much like a narrowboat.

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2 hours ago, MartynG said:

Under low power the tendency to wander is not unusual for a single engined sterndrive boat . You will eventually learn how to correct it instinctively.  When it is  safe to do so try leaving the steering alone and the boat may correct itself........ but not always.  

A little wind indicator flag on the bow - or even a ribbon attached to the rail- may be a good investment in order to see which way the wind may be taking the bow - all the weight is near the stern so the wind may easily catch hold of the bow.

 

That is a great idea. Thank you.

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11 hours ago, LadyG said:

I did not stick my oar in, I just passed comment, I don't know why you get so upset, I thought you wanted to know if I had "the balls" for boating.

  f=ma, but at 4mph, there is not too much of either, yes I did the physics of two converging vessels, and overtaking vessels, and prop walk, and so on [Ive got a Certificate!], every boat handles differently, but it does not take long to get the basics, otherwise there would be no canal hire companies.  Experience  comes with experience, does not mean I cant use knowledge from my past experience  to handle a boat on a canal. Does not mean I cant use instruction to accelerate the learning process.

pedants corner.

according to "ike" f does indeed = ma. 

my boat weighs roughly 22 tonnes which means that the M bit is in fact pretty damn big.

4 mph is a speed but  the "a" bit refers to acceleration, or perhaps more pertinently deceleration,  of the type caused by hitting, say for instance, and to cite just one possibility, a lock. 

to go from 4 mph to 0 in a couple of seconds means that the  "a" bit is in fact pretty damn big too. 

multiply one pretty damn big number by the other pretty damn big number and the answer is ugly by any stretch of the imagination 

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