Consultation the use of Red Diesel fuel

[OldGoat]

There is a consultation on the use of MGO which has no 'press' - as is usual for governmental consultations to which they don't really want  a response (Cynic Moi??). Here:-

 https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/red-diesel-call-for-evidence/red-diesel-call-for-evidence

There's no discussion and no format for the reply, but it might  be worth folks writing in either to retain the status quo or a return to the regime we had before Brussels interfered.
Entries close on 30th. June

(Thanks to Waterways World for noting the consultation)

[Chewbacka]

Given that the government just released the clean air strategy and this is naming diesel as a significant source of NOx in cities and given that boat engines have zero emissions controls and so emit lots of NOx then I can see a lot of political desire to limit diesel use in boats moored up in cities especially if the lower price of red diesel encourages continuous cruisers to sit with idling engines for hours charging batteries etc.  Normally the rule is pay to pollute, but if red diesel is kept it will be tax rebate to pollute...........

This does not look good to me, and I am struggling to think of a strong reason to continue to allow red sales to pleasure boats used in cities.

[Jerra]

6 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Given that the government just released the clean air strategy and this is naming diesel as a significant source of NOx in cities and given that boat engines have zero emissions controls and so emit lots of NOx then I can see a lot of political desire to limit diesel use in boats moored up in cities especially if the lower price of red diesel encourages continuous cruisers to sit with idling engines for hours charging batteries etc.  Normally the rule is pay to pollute, but if red diesel is kept it will be tax rebate to pollute...........

This does not look good to me, and I am struggling to think of a strong reason to continue to allow red sales to pleasure boats used in cities.

I would agree but I can't think how you can decide which boats would be used in cities.  The result would either be some form of "diesel charge" as you entered the area or apply it to all leisure boats IMO.

[Chewbacka]

14 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I would agree but I can't think how you can decide which boats would be used in cities.  The result would either be some form of "diesel charge" as you entered the area or apply it to all leisure boats IMO.

I agree, a city entry charge would be too expensive to administer.  I can see Red diesel being scrapped for pleasure boat use as well as increasing emissions controls for new builds in the not too distant future.  But with Brexit taking up all the parliament time and keeping all the civil servants busy, I can see it being a few years before anything changes.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Chewbacka

[MtB]

On 06/05/2017 at 11:17, Chewbacka said:

 

This does not look good to me, and I am struggling to think of a strong reason to continue to allow red sales to pleasure boats used in cities.

 

Boats which are homes used in cities, on the other hand....

[OldGoat]

10 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I agree, a city entry charge would be too expensive to administer.  I can see Red diesel being scrapped for pleasure boat use as well as increasing emissions controls for new builds in the not too distant future.  But with Brexit taking up all the parliament time and keeping all the civil servants busy, I can see it being a few years before anything changes.

Boats in the inland waterways use a tiny, tiny amount of fuel when compared with motor vehicles. Remember, the tax on fuel is 'declared to be' for road use, rather than just a general tax. That's how it is defined and - I guess- is unlikely to be changed.

Of course if your boat has a wet exhaust, then all the Nox ins converted into acid and wont harm folks...

 

It takes but a moment - less than commenting on here to say 'keep our Red'. If you say nowt then you may have to suffer increased costs.

   

[Neil2]

This was raised back in April IIRC.

I've certainly written to HM Treasury about this, I suspect other members have done so.

No harm in raising it again.

[b0atman]

London will be the leader in the dirty air problems so watch out for lots of petrol generators running .

 

[Chewbacka]

3 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Boats in the inland waterways use a tiny, tiny amount of fuel when compared with motor vehicles. Remember, the tax on fuel is 'declared to be' for road use, rather than just a general tax. That's how it is defined and - I guess- is unlikely to be changed.

Of course if your boat has a wet exhaust, then all the Nox ins converted into acid and wont harm folks...

 

It takes but a moment - less than commenting on here to say 'keep our Red'. If you say nowt then you may have to suffer increased costs.

   

But in certain areas where there is a high concentration of moored boats running engines and given boats emit like 100 times more NOx than a Euro6 car, then I can see local people than don't like the boats anyway, using this as an excuse to complain (in London) to tfl to put pressure to remove the rebate we currently get.  But I hope I am wrong.

[BEngo]

16 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

But in certain areas where there is a high concentration of moored boats running engines and given boats emit like 100 times more NOx than a Euro6 car, then I can see local people than don't like the boats anyway, using this as an excuse to complain (in London) to tfl to put pressure to remove the rebate we currently get.  But I hope I am wrong.

Have you any evidence for this?  NOx is formed mainly by high combustion temperatures,  which modern car diesels have in order to get low CO2 figures, whereas most boat diesels, particularly the older ones are low stress, low combustion temperature machines so I would expect relatively low levels of NOx.  Boat diesels are probably high in any size particulate though.

N

[peterboat]

37 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

But in certain areas where there is a high concentration of moored boats running engines and given boats emit like 100 times more NOx than a Euro6 car, then I can see local people than don't like the boats anyway, using this as an excuse to complain (in London) to tfl to put pressure to remove the rebate we currently get.  But I hope I am wrong.

 

16 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Have you any evidence for this?  NOx is formed mainly by high combustion temperatures,  which modern car diesels have in order to get low CO2 figures, whereas most boat diesels, particularly the older ones are low stress, low combustion temperature machines so I would expect relatively low levels of NOx.  Boat diesels are probably high in any size particulate though.

N

This is the problem euro six cars are supposed to be low in NOX but figures are being fiddled, so the reality is something else and euro five is a joke isnt it? as proved by VW/Audi/Seat/Scoda, and as times go on, others are falling under suspicion of fiddling the figures to kill people!

I think boats will end up paying to visit towns and cities like cars will have to do, so what happens to the city/town center perm moorings I dont know? Maybe they will have to remove/disable engines to be allowed to stay, perhaps the horse will make a comeback. I do know we will be collateral damage because we dont organise ourselves to make our point. I responded back to the consultation in April  and posted it on here urging others to do the same, whether its enough who know but I doubt it!

Anyway I will get on with fitting the electric motor to the bathtub see you

Edited May 6, 2017 by peterboat

[Chewbacka]

20 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Have you any evidence for this?  NOx is formed mainly by high combustion temperatures,  which modern car diesels have in order to get low CO2 figures, whereas most boat diesels, particularly the older ones are low stress, low combustion temperature machines so I would expect relatively low levels of NOx.  Boat diesels are probably high in any size particulate though.

N

Refrigeration units on trucks (TRU) use small diesel engines with few emissions control that are also not working that hard.  Here are a couple of quotes for you to consider -

Andrew Selous MP said:

“There are, I understand, estimated to be 84,000 transport refrigeration units powered by highly polluting diesel engines that are not yet regulated. That is a significant omission in the urgent battle that the Government need to fight to significantly improve the United Kingdom’s air quality. What action will the Government take on transport refrigeration units?”

 

"As Mr Selous rightly pointed out, if Britain’s 84,000 TRUs became zero-emission, that would equate to taking 5.5 million Euro6 diesel cars off our roads, or 505,000 Euro6 trucks."

 

 

 

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

Refrigeration units on trucks (TRU) use small diesel engines with few emissions control that are also not working that hard.  Here are a couple of quotes for you to consider -

Andrew Selous MP said:

“There are, I understand, estimated to be 84,000 transport refrigeration units powered by highly polluting diesel engines that are not yet regulated. That is a significant omission in the urgent battle that the Government need to fight to significantly improve the United Kingdom’s air quality. What action will the Government take on transport refrigeration units?”

 

"As Mr Selous rightly pointed out, if Britain’s 84,000 TRUs became zero-emission, that would equate to taking 5.5 million Euro6 diesel cars off our roads, or 505,000 Euro6 trucks."

 

 

 

These could easily be LPG powered refrigeration units which would be quiet and clean as a catalyst could be used on it. The transport industry arnt bothered about how many they kill as long as its cheap to do it [and preferably as noisy as hell].

Unfortunately its legislation that is need to clean up the transport industries act and then they will hold us to ransom by saying they will starve us to death if want change

[canalboat]

I wonder if anyone has ever put a figure on the harmful emissions from an average house heating system fuelled by oil.

[Chewbacka]

36 minutes ago, canalboat said:

I wonder if anyone has ever put a figure on the harmful emissions from an average house heating system fuelled by oil.

I am sure they have, but cars are the easy target and in a way supported by the industry as taking old cars off the road via scrapage scheme generates more car sales.  So - apart from the diesel car owners, which I am thankfully not, everybody else either doesn't care or is happy with bashing diesel cars, especially if it is a 7 series BMW 

[gigoguy]

10 hours ago, OldGoat said:

return to the regime we had before Brussels interfered.

What was that?

[Machpoint005]

As I recall, we had a derogation (ie a temporary exemption) from the European requirement to charge duty on all diesel fuel -- all boats were previously allowed to use 'red' diesel. The derogation ended in (I think) about 2009 so we had to fall in line with the rest of Europe regarding the use of red -- so our wonderful government introduced a voluntary declaration system but didn't bother to police it, because there was no point, financially speaking.

We now have a witch hunt against diesel fuel generally, the CO2 benefits having been conveniently forgotten, so even though we will in 2018 no longer be subject to EU Directives we boaters won't get our red back. We may well end up paying more duty as a direct result of being lumped in with road vehicles.  

3 hours ago, canalboat said:

I wonder if anyone has ever put a figure on the harmful emissions from an average house heating system fuelled by oil.

Or the harmful emissions from an average house heating system fuelled by gas, or electricity from a coal-fired or gas-fired power station?

[Machpoint005]

Not sure how Mr Selous (he's not an MP at present -- nobody is) proposes a zero-emission fridge unit on a vehicle. What are they going to run them on, fairy dust? 

[Ex Brummie]

Home central heating systems run on 28 sec , Kerosene, which is a much cleaner fuel than 35 sec, Diesel. Also, the sulphur content was reduced some 10 years ago to makeit even cleaner. Much work is now proceeding to produce blue flame combustion, which will almost halve CO2 emissions from the usual 11% ish, and reduce the very few particulates that currently occur.

Boat engines tend to be among the dirtier diesels because of their age, and you only have to look at some of the exhausts on some older boats to see the filth they produce. A congregation of some of the continuous moorers is not a nice place to moor nearby, so one can understand the reaction of local residents to this pollution. They cannot move away.

[Machpoint005]

I think the sulphur content in diesel fuel has also been reduced.

It's bad enough thinking about N and C without adding S to the mix!

[gigoguy]

 

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

As I recall, we had a derogation (ie a temporary exemption) from the European requirement to charge duty on all diesel fuel -- all boats were previously allowed to use 'red' diesel. The derogation ended in (I think) about 2009 so we had to fall in line with the rest of Europe regarding the use of red -- so our wonderful government introduced a voluntary declaration system but didn't bother to police it, because there was no point, financially speaking

Cheers for that.

Is it true that trading boats are exempt from the propulsion levy though, and if so why?

I mean, as a business, they can reclaim their fuel expenses anyway can't they?

 

I fear you're spot on with your prophecy though.

[Machpoint005]

32 minutes ago, gigoguy said:

 

Cheers for that.

Is it true that trading boats are exempt from the propulsion levy though, and if so why?

I mean, as a business, they can reclaim their fuel expenses anyway can't they?

 

I fear you're spot on with your prophecy though.

Only part of them. The VAT if they are registered, and they may be able to offset some as a legitimate expense, but not where they relate to domestic (not business) use. It's complicated. 

[gigoguy]

1 minute ago, Machpoint005 said:

Only part of them. The VAT if they are registered, and they may be able to offset some as a legitimate expense, but not where they relate to domestic (not business) use. It's complicated. 

Oh right. Coz when I had my own business I used to give all my fuel receipts, car as well as company vehicles, to my accountant and he used to reclaim them against my company tax. We also claimed for heating costs of the offices and shops and all other services costs. I was zero rated for VAT though. That meant I was in a sector that has to pay VAT but can't claim it back, but doesn't have to charge it either. Again it's complicated but basically it's a tax break for the rich as usual. Large companies have to charge VAT but they can screw millions out of the government by reclaiming more than they pay. Small companies pay through the nose, have the invoices they send increased by 20% and can't claim a penny back. Zero rated businesses are usually in the public interest companies. Public housing, special education, charity and the like. 

The word on the street is a VAT increase...........a strong and stable economy perfect for putting small businesses out of business.

Hey maybe we should all get horses?

[furnessvale]

17 hours ago, peterboat said:

These could easily be LPG powered refrigeration units which would be quiet and clean as a catalyst could be used on it. The transport industry arnt bothered about how many they kill as long as its cheap to do it [and preferably as noisy as hell].

Unfortunately its legislation that is need to clean up the transport industries act and then they will hold us to ransom by saying they will starve us to death if want change

Interesting that the new government strategy document on clean air makes no mention of transferring freight to rail even though railfreight produces less than one third of the pollution of road, to move the same amount.

It does seem proud of the new anti pollution regs it has imposed on rail to make rail even cleaner.  Sad that those regs mean you cannot build a new loco at present that will actually fit within the UKs restricted loading gauge meaning that, for the foreseeable future, the railways will be using older freight locos and continually rebuilding them, rather than investing in new.

George ex nb Alton retired

[Sir Nibble]

Am I alone in noticing that the newer clean diesels are chucking black smoke around the place? I don't think a day goes by without me noticing a vehicle making black smoke, all newer vehicles of course. And if you want to see what the inside of a diesel particulate filter looks like, look in a garage's bin. They clog, the dpf gets cut open, emptied and re welded. The technology doesn't work, it's all wishful thinking and snapshot tests on new vehicles with results that are not sustained in the real world. And it breaks, expensively, and chucks out shit with a light glowing on the dashboard until the owner can find £1000 for a set of injectors and another grand for someone to cut the old ones out of the head.