Consultation the use of Red Diesel fuel

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Interesting that the new government strategy document on clean air makes no mention of transferring freight to rail even though railfreight produces less than one third of the pollution of road, to move the same amount.

It does seem proud of the new anti pollution regs it has imposed on rail to make rail even cleaner.  Sad that those regs mean you cannot build a new loco at present that will actually fit within the UKs restricted loading gauge meaning that, for the foreseeable future, the railways will be using older freight locos and continually rebuilding them, rather than investing in new.

George ex nb Alton retired

 

1 minute ago, Sir Nibble said:

Am I alone in noticing that the newer clean diesels are chucking black smoke around the place? I don't think a day goes by without me noticing a vehicle making black smoke, all newer vehicles of course. And if you want to see what the inside of a diesel particulate filter looks like, look in a garage's bin. They clog, the dpf gets cut open, emptied and re welded. The technology doesn't work, it's all wishful thinking and snapshot tests on new vehicles with results that are not sustained in the real world. And it breaks, expensively, and chucks out shit with a light glowing on the dashboard until the owner can find £1000 for a set of injectors and another grand for someone to cut the old ones out of the head.

I am lucky once or twice a week a tanker cruises past my window it carries 600 tons of oil on it and puts loads of tankers off the road! Also 2 rail tracks one 100 yards away the other 400 yards away rattling away in the evenings and nights moving freight, these methods of freight are clean and cheap, and have to be the way forward with electric lorries at point of delivery. As for dirty diesel cars, These should be subject to real world MOTs they were planned but I suspect the Government realised that all of them would be off the road at the first MOT with the makers in more trouble than a little.

[MtB]

On 07/05/2017 at 09:33, Sir Nibble said:

Am I alone in noticing that the newer clean diesels are chucking black smoke around the place? I don't think a day goes by without me noticing a vehicle making black smoke, all newer vehicles of course. And if you want to see what the inside of a diesel particulate filter looks like, look in a garage's bin. They clog, the dpf gets cut open, emptied and re welded. The technology doesn't work, it's all wishful thinking and snapshot tests on new vehicles with results that are not sustained in the real world. And it breaks, expensively, and chucks out shit with a light glowing on the dashboard until the owner can find £1000 for a set of injectors and another grand for someone to cut the old ones out of the head.

 

I agree. I regularly see a cloud of black smoke belching from the exhaust for 30 seconds or so on a nearly new diesel car or light van. I always imagined this being the DPF purging itself as the do every so often.

My Euro5 van will also belch out embarrassing clouds of mid grey smoke for about a mile or so if I sit with the engine idling for ten minutes. I have to turn it OFF if I stop to make a phone call or get stuck in a motorway queue.

And what's all this about the injectors getting jammed in the heads of so many vehicles as you mention?  This seems a really basic engineering failure, allowing soot to lock them in. The heater plugs on my Vito also have the same problem. They snap off instead of unscrewing apparently.

[Neil Smith]

11 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

Home central heating systems run on 28 sec , Kerosene, which is a much cleaner fuel than 35 sec, Diesel. Also, the sulphur content was reduced some 10 years ago to makeit even cleaner. Much work is now proceeding to produce blue flame combustion, which will almost halve CO2 emissions from the usual 11% ish, and reduce the very few particulates that currently occur.

Boat engines tend to be among the dirtier diesels because of their age, and you only have to look at some of the exhausts on some older boats to see the filth they produce. A congregation of some of the continuous moorers is not a nice place to moor nearby, so one can understand the reaction of local residents to this pollution. They cannot move away.

There is no problem running old engines on 28 second heating oil, and yes it dose reduce emissions as my previous fitted that looked after my old lorry suggested I fill it up with kero as it failed it's test on high emissions, after doing this and retesting it went through no problem so drained and filled up with diesel before I got caught.

Neil

[jake_crew]

I'm sure the diesel used to power the Cross Rail tunnel boring machines must be a significant part of the spike in London poluution.

From their own figures, the project has produced 7 million tonnes of spoil.  It takes 10 tons of diesel to cut 1 ton of spoil.

Then the spoil has to be moved / lifted / transported away.

Each ton of fuel consumed makes over 2 tons of CO2.  Its difficult to estimate the amount of other gases (NO, N2O etc) but some sources suggest these levels are 5% of the CO2 produced, but the CO2 cretaed alone totals 140 million tons.

Perhaps when Cross Rail is complete, Londons air quality will improve ?

 

[jake_crew]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And what's all this about the injectors getting jammed in the heads of so many vehicles as you mention?  This seems a really basic engineering failure, allowing soot to lock them in. The heater plugs on my Vito also have the same problem. They snap off instead of unscrewing apparently.

The nose of the injecter seals in the cyl head with a soft copper washer.

These age-harden and leak so the injecters become locked in by carbonised fuel.

Seems a common poblem now with many makes of diesel car / van.

My mate has a Vito, and when he trouble with it, diagnostics showed an injector fault.  When he took off the engine top cover, the whole housing was full of - well - coal.  Once chselled out, seals replaced and wiring repaired (and one new injector) its OK now.  Would have been a £2000 job if he hadn't done most of it himself.

[furnessvale]

2 hours ago, jake_crew said:

I'm sure the diesel used to power the Cross Rail tunnel boring machines must be a significant part of the spike in London poluution.

From their own figures, the project has produced 7 million tonnes of spoil.  It takes 10 tons of diesel to cut 1 ton of spoil.

Then the spoil has to be moved / lifted / transported away.

Each ton of fuel consumed makes over 2 tons of CO2.  Its difficult to estimate the amount of other gases (NO, N2O etc) but some sources suggest these levels are 5% of the CO2 produced, but the CO2 cretaed alone totals 140 million tons.

Perhaps when Cross Rail is complete, Londons air quality will improve ?

 

I have found research into this inconclusive, but I would be very surprised if these machines were not electrically powered given the problems of ventilation in such tunnels.

George ex nb Alton retired

[Mike Todd]

15 hours ago, gigoguy said:

Oh right. Coz when I had my own business I used to give all my fuel receipts, car as well as company vehicles, to my accountant and he used to reclaim them against my company tax. We also claimed for heating costs of the offices and shops and all other services costs. I was zero rated for VAT though. That meant I was in a sector that has to pay VAT but can't claim it back, but doesn't have to charge it either. Again it's complicated but basically it's a tax break for the rich as usual. Large companies have to charge VAT but they can screw millions out of the government by reclaiming more than they pay. Small companies pay through the nose, have the invoices they send increased by 20% and can't claim a penny back. Zero rated businesses are usually in the public interest companies. Public housing, special education, charity and the like. 

The word on the street is a VAT increase...........a strong and stable economy perfect for putting small businesses out of business.

Hey maybe we should all get horses?

I thought that Chancellor Ken put an end to that some little time ago. that is, consistently reclaiming more back than you pay in for VAT. (The occasional 'bad' quarter is still OK) Of course there are plenty of people trying to devise wheezes for not paying all forms of tax in the first place.

[Tacet]

4 hours ago, jake_crew said:

From their own figures, the project has produced 7 million tonnes of spoil.  It takes 10 tons of diesel to cut 1 ton of spoil.

Seems like a lot of diesel. By my maths, it would need around 6,000 litres of diesel to cut enough spoil to fill a builder's skip. At 50 per litre, that's 3,000 GBP.  I'm sure that there's some that would fill a skip for less money.

The figures didn't come from Diane Abbott by any chance?

[Alan de Enfield]

My digger will run 8hrs + on about 30/35 litres.

I can shift about 100+ kg per bucket, (say) 3 minutes per bucket full, = 2 tonnes per hour.

About 2 litres (approx. 2kg) of fuel per ton of 'earth'.

[dmr]

6 hours ago, Neil Smith said:

There is no problem running old engines on 28 second heating oil, and yes it dose reduce emissions as my previous fitted that looked after my old lorry suggested I fill it up with kero as it failed it's test on high emissions, after doing this and retesting it went through no problem so drained and filled up with diesel before I got caught.

Neil

Is this actually true?

We were sold some "bad diesel" last summer and the most likely explanation is that the tanker driver had delivered heating oil rather than diesel by mistake.

We had a Lot of smoke and were unable to get full power out of the engine, just tons of smoke.

What is the cetane rating of heating oil????

............Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, dmr said:

.

What is the cetane rating of heating oil????

............Dave

In the hierarchy of refined petroleum products from highest to lowest (from a gaseous state, then liquid, to solid) are: natural gas; "wet" natural gas; high-octane aviation gasoline; automotive gasoline; finished kerosene; home heating oil; diesel fuel; industrial fuel oil; finished lubricating oils; waxes and paraffin's; gas oil; coke and finally asphalt. Also moving from highest to lowest, the viscosity, or stiffness, of the refined product increases. For example, at room temperature, automotive gasoline flows much more freely than finished lubricating oils.

Diesel fuel lies in the middle of the refined petroleum hierarchy and is considered one of the middle distillates -- slightly heavier than kerosene and slightly lighter than industrial (bunker) fuel oil. Like automotive gasoline, diesel fuel is refined into several sub-categories or grades. From highest to lowest viscosity are Number 1 Diesel Fuel (1-D), Number 2 Diesel
Fuel (2-D) and Number 4 Fuel Diesel (4-D). There used to be a Number 3 Diesel Fuel (3-D), but it is no longer refined.

Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel is slightly lighter than industrial fuel oil and is used in low and medium speed engines that operate at a constant or near-constant speed, such as stationary power plants or railroad locomotives. Even though Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel has an ignition quality similar to Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel, it is too thick to work well in a truck engine where the load on the engine is constantly changing and requires varying amounts of fuel to be injected into the cylinders.

Just above Diesel fuel in the middle distillate category is Kerosene (Home Heating Oil). Like Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel, Kerosene has an ignition quality similar to Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel. But unlike Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel, which is too thick, Kerosene is too thin to work well as an engine fuel. The thickness of the diesel fuel itself acts as a lubricant to prevent wear of the engine's fuel injectors. This lubricating quality of diesel fuel is why some Old-timers still refer to it as "Diesel Oil." Adding a common lubricant to Kerosene usually decreases its ignition quality.

Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel are the primary fuel for mobile diesel engine applications. Number 1 Diesel Fuel is commonly labeled at the pump as "Premium Diesel" or with a Cetane number of 44 or 45. It is not as thick as Number 2 Diesel Fuel and for this reason is the choice for motorists during the cold winter months. The disadvantage of Number 1 Diesel Fuel is that it does not have the lubricating qualities associated with Number 2 Diesel Fuel. While Number 2 Diesel Fuel has a higher lubricating quality than Number 1 Diesel, its thickness can cause rough starting in a cold engine and rough-running in cold weather. Number 2 Diesel Fuel is usually labeled at the pump with a Cetane number of 40.

Home Heating Oil (Kerosene) is closest to Number 2 Diesel Fuel in ignition quality and lubricating ability. But before anybody rushes to put this non-road taxed fuel in their truck, consider this: refiners don't intend Home Heating Oil to be used in an internal combustion engine and the furnace fuel that is sitting in your basement tank may or may not have the smoke suppressants, ignition accelerators and biocides to kill fungi and bacteria that we generally assume to be present in the Diesel Fuel at the pump.
Cetane:
#2 diesel should have a cetane rating between 40-55. If I remember correctly, nothing lower then 45 should be run in most common diesel engines, lest it's non-turbo. The higher the cetane rating the better, especially on cold days, as it will make starting an easier process. In the winter, look for the highest number you can find. Also ensure you are using a good additive.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In the hierarchy of refined petroleum products from highest to lowest (from a gaseous state, then liquid, to solid) are: natural gas; "wet" natural gas; high-octane aviation gasoline; automotive gasoline; finished kerosene; home heating oil; diesel fuel; industrial fuel oil; finished lubricating oils; waxes and paraffin's; gas oil; coke and finally asphalt. Also moving from highest to lowest, the viscosity, or stiffness, of the refined product increases. For example, at room temperature, automotive gasoline flows much more freely than finished lubricating oils.

Diesel fuel lies in the middle of the refined petroleum hierarchy and is considered one of the middle distillates -- slightly heavier than kerosene and slightly lighter than industrial (bunker) fuel oil. Like automotive gasoline, diesel fuel is refined into several sub-categories or grades. From highest to lowest viscosity are Number 1 Diesel Fuel (1-D), Number 2 Diesel
Fuel (2-D) and Number 4 Fuel Diesel (4-D). There used to be a Number 3 Diesel Fuel (3-D), but it is no longer refined.

Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel is slightly lighter than industrial fuel oil and is used in low and medium speed engines that operate at a constant or near-constant speed, such as stationary power plants or railroad locomotives. Even though Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel has an ignition quality similar to Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel, it is too thick to work well in a truck engine where the load on the engine is constantly changing and requires varying amounts of fuel to be injected into the cylinders.

Just above Diesel fuel in the middle distillate category is Kerosene (Home Heating Oil). Like Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel, Kerosene has an ignition quality similar to Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel. But unlike Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel, which is too thick, Kerosene is too thin to work well as an engine fuel. The thickness of the diesel fuel itself acts as a lubricant to prevent wear of the engine's fuel injectors. This lubricating quality of diesel fuel is why some Old-timers still refer to it as "Diesel Oil." Adding a common lubricant to Kerosene usually decreases its ignition quality.

Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel are the primary fuel for mobile diesel engine applications. Number 1 Diesel Fuel is commonly labeled at the pump as "Premium Diesel" or with a Cetane number of 44 or 45. It is not as thick as Number 2 Diesel Fuel and for this reason is the choice for motorists during the cold winter months. The disadvantage of Number 1 Diesel Fuel is that it does not have the lubricating qualities associated with Number 2 Diesel Fuel. While Number 2 Diesel Fuel has a higher lubricating quality than Number 1 Diesel, its thickness can cause rough starting in a cold engine and rough-running in cold weather. Number 2 Diesel Fuel is usually labeled at the pump with a Cetane number of 40.

Home Heating Oil (Kerosene) is closest to Number 2 Diesel Fuel in ignition quality and lubricating ability. But before anybody rushes to put this non-road taxed fuel in their truck, consider this: refiners don't intend Home Heating Oil to be used in an internal combustion engine and the furnace fuel that is sitting in your basement tank may or may not have the smoke suppressants, ignition accelerators and biocides to kill fungi and bacteria that we generally assume to be present in the Diesel Fuel at the pump.
Cetane:
#2 diesel should have a cetane rating between 40-55. If I remember correctly, nothing lower then 45 should be run in most common diesel engines, lest it's non-turbo. The higher the cetane rating the better, especially on cold days, as it will make starting an easier process. In the winter, look for the highest number you can find. Also ensure you are using a good additive.

Some of this does not fit 100% with some current data sheets from fuel suppliers so could be out of date?. Fuel supplier data sheets suggest a cetane number of 51 for road fuel (DERV), though there is a cetane number and a cetane index which I need to learn about, and a cetane number of 45 for gas oil (red diesel). The manual for my engine says it likes 45 but will run on 40. I use a cetane enhancer and lubricity additive just to be sure. The data sheets for heating oil do not give a cetane number.

I will never know for sure what I was sold last summer but it seriously upset my engine.

............Dave