Barrus Shires won't stop !

[Bright Angel]

Today the stop button on my Barrus Shires engine stopped working for no apparent reason. After trying all the usual stuff I located the fuel pump solenoid and pressed the button on the end to stop the engine. Any ideas as to what caused this ? Have looked at the back of the panel and all wires attached and OK. Thanks

[MtB]

Well its a racing certainty the stop solenoid needs energising to stop the engine, so either there is no 12v arriving at it, or the windings are open circuit. 

Use a multimeter on the solenoid terminals to determine which it is.

[Eeyore]

Some Barrus engines have a small relay hanging off the harness part way between the engine and the control panel.

The relay switches the supply to the shut down solenoid; you should be able to feel and hear it operating when the stop button is pressed.

If you are lucky it's just corrosion on the socket and external parts of the relay which can be cleaned up after you unplug it.

If you need to renew the relay be sure to get one with the same pin (blade) numbering; as there are two different types dispite them being physically indentical!! 

http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/relay-guide.html.  Shows the difference, about half way down the page.

You can also use the 5 pin version as long as terminals 30 and 86 are the right way round; the extra pin is not connected to anything in the socket.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Eeyore

[Detling]

if you have a large multi pin plug and socket in the cable from the control panel to the engine harness it may be useful to unplug it and replug it a few times to clean it up.

[bizzard]

Relays in instances like this are just a substitute for decent heavy clunk click switches that can take the load with heavier wiring to match.  Vehicles are chock full of relays, batches of em, lurking in hidden locations, mainly because folk want tichy little light weight and touch control switches that don't need much effort to operate, instead of nice big chunky switches 'which would keep their fingers fitter' with nice thicker wiring to match.  Manufactures love relays, the systems are cheaper to knock up, but complicate with far more connections and terminals which help makes systems less reliable.   Oh, I wish I still had my 1936 Ford 8 Y type.

[MtB]

On 05/05/2017 at 08:23, bizzard said:

Relays in instances like this are just a substitute for decent heavy clunk click switches that can take the load with heavier wiring to match.  Vehicles are chock full of relays, batches of em, lurking in hidden locations, mainly because folk want tichy little light weight and touch control switches that don't need much effort to operate, instead of nice big chunky switches 'which would keep their fingers fitter' with nice thicker wiring to match.  Manufactures love relays, the systems are cheaper to knock up, but complicate with far more connections and terminals which help makes systems less reliable.   Oh, I wish I still had my 1936 Ford 8 Y type.

 

I remember the headlights on my wife's old 1968 Triumph Spitfire failing back in the mid 80s. I traced the fault to the on/off switch, which was the sort of switch one could also buy from Radiospares. Instead of buying a new switch though, the old one was held together with proper machine screws allowing me to dismantle it, clean the contacts and put it back in. 

You don't need to go back to 1936 to get cars that were made properly

Mind you, the outriggers could rot out between leaving home to get some shopping, and getting back later that afternoon.

[bizzard]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I remember the headlights on my wife's old 1968 Triumph Spitfire failing back in the mid 80s. I traced the fault to the on/off switch, which was the sort of switch one could also buy from Radiospares. Instead of buying a new switch though, the old one was held together with proper machine screws allowing me to dismantle it, clean the contacts and put it back in. 

You don't need to go back to 1936 to get cars that were made properly

Mind you, the outriggers could rot out between leaving home to get some shopping, and getting back later that afternoon.

Same things like out riggers, trailing arm mounts on Heralds too. Rear wheel bearing set up was a nasty design too. Never liked Spitfires, nor Heralds much, noisy, rattly things.    Relays began to be used in cars in a biggish way around the mid 1970's

Edited May 5, 2017 by bizzard

[MtB]

On 05/05/2017 at 09:51, bizzard said:

Same things like out riggers, trailing arm mounts on Heralds too. Rear wheel bearing set up was a nasty design too. Never liked Spitfires, nor Heralds much, noisy, rattly things.    Relays began to be used in cars in a biggish way around the mid 1970's

I used to feel the same way about them, until pressed into buying one and using it regularly. I grew to love the way it rattled along and felt like it was held together with wet string and sellotape. It sort of followed the shape of the road in a very organic-feeling way. And the handling was phenomenal. It could be persuaded to go around corners and bends every bit as quick as my Mini Cooper 'S'. 

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I used to feel the same way about them, until pressed into buying one and using it regularly. I grew to love the way it rattled along and felt like it was held together with wet string and sellotape. It sort of followed the shape of the road in a very organic-feeling way. And the handling was phenomenal. It could be persuaded to go around corners and bends every bit as quick as my Mini Cooper 'S'. 

I was once called out to a car crash in my breakdown wagon which occured on the Bow flyover in east London. A spitfire had run into the back of a lorry at speed. When I arrived the police, fire brigade were still clearing up. According to the police the Spitfires bonnet had unlatched and jumped up on impact and cut through the windscreen chopping the girl drivers head off. It was the most horrible call out I ever had.

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I remember the headlights on my wife's old 1968 Triumph Spitfire failing back in the mid 80s. I traced the fault to the on/off switch, which was the sort of switch one could also buy from Radiospares. Instead of buying a new switch though, the old one was held together with proper machine screws allowing me to dismantle it, clean the contacts and put it back in. 

You don't need to go back to 1936 to get cars that were made properly

Mind you, the outriggers could rot out between leaving home to get some shopping, and getting back later that afternoon.

Amen to that. I fixed a few minor faults on my daughter's 1980s Skoda Favorit simply by dismantling components, cleaning them and putting them together again. Mind you, most spares were so cheap for those cars that it was better to replace them!

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I used to feel the same way about them, until pressed into buying one and using it regularly. I grew to love the way it rattled along and felt like it was held together with wet string and sellotape. It sort of followed the shape of the road in a very organic-feeling way. And the handling was phenomenal. It could be persuaded to go around corners and bends every bit as quick as my Mini Cooper 'S'. 

Unless you had to lift off or brake half way through a bend... then the swing axle suspension would jack up and reverse you into a hedge.

You could buy a modification, called "Tight a turn" or similar which cured it.

 

BL sorted it on the mark 3 Spitfires & GT6's by using a transverse leaf spring IIRC.

[bizzard]

10 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Unless you had to lift off or brake half way through a bend... then the swing axle suspension would jack up and reverse you into a hedge.

You could buy a modification, called "Tight a turn" or similar which cured it.

 

BL sorted it on the mark 3 Spitfires & GT6's by using a transverse leaf spring IIRC.

All the old Spitfires and Heralds had a transverse leaf spring at the rear, can't remember what the GT6 had though.  My old Ford Y type had them at both front and rear as did all the old sit up and beg Fords up until 1959.

[mross]

If your engine can only be stopped by energising a solenoid, then I recommend fitting a cable stop as a backup.  If there were to be a fire in the engine bay, the wiring would soon melt and there would be no way of stopping the engine.  It's possible that the fire is being fueled by a high-pressure fuel leak (ie from an injector pipe) or even from a leak after an engine-driven lift pump.  It's surprising how long an engine will run if you isolate the fuel at the fuel tank.  Most injector pumps already have a fuel cut-off lever and cable bracket, so attaching a Bowden cable is simple.  Autofactors sell 'choke cables' which are suitable.  The knob part can be anywhere outside the engine bay.  Ideally, it would be on the instrument panel, near the start button or 'ignition' key, but it could also be on the deck if protected by a cover.

[Nightwatch]

We get our relays from Maplins. Always got two spares onboard. We have a Barras Shire.

[IanM]

4 hours ago, bizzard said:

Same things like out riggers, trailing arm mounts on Heralds too. Rear wheel bearing set up was a nasty design too. Never liked Spitfires, nor Heralds much, noisy, rattly things.    Relays began to be used in cars in a biggish way around the mid 1970's

The only relay in my Spitfire was what the lovely people at Triumph deemed a safety feature and that was the 'night dimming' relay which dimmed the brake lights at night (when the sidelights/headlights were switched on) so you didn't dazzle the driver of the car behind if you were sat in traffic with your foot on the brake.

Needless to say I've now removed it!

[mross]

4 hours ago, bizzard said:

I was once called out to a car crash in my breakdown wagon which occured on the Bow flyover in east London. A spitfire had run into the back of a lorry at speed.

The Spitfire obviously attempted to fly under the flyover!

[Bright Angel]

Thank you everybody, some really useful information about Triumph Spitfires and accidents on the Bow Flyover !!!!

As for the Barrus it turned out to be a blown fuse in the vicinity of the starter battery.

Come to think of it the Spitfire had a fuse in it somewhere and if it blew then both cannons jammed and you flew back to base as soon as you could. Hope this is of some use !!

Edited May 5, 2017 by Bright Angel
clarification

[PD1964]

A friend had this problem a few weeks ago, first check the inline fuse on the wiring that provides the 12v.  On my friends Barrus it ran from the starter motor. Check this first as he bought a new fuel pump solenoid not cheap from Barrus £300+ and all it was was a corroded fuse. What Barrus engine is it? as he also bought a new solenoid and stop button, Get a multi meter and check the voltage to each component, but first locate the fuse and check.

[PD1964]

15 minutes ago, Bright Angel said:

Thank you everybody, some really useful information about Triumph Spitfires and accidents on the Bow Flyover !!!!

As for the Barrus it turned out to be a blown fuse in the vicinity of the starter battery.

Come to think of it the Spitfire had a fuse in it somewhere and if it blew then both cannons jammed and you flew back to base as soon as you could. Hope this is of some use !!

Glad you got it sorted, as was just replying with the fuse scenario, there should also be a fuse from where I said, , if it's wired like my friends. Something to remember if happens again

Edited May 5, 2017 by PD1964

[nb Innisfree]

1 hour ago, IanM said:

The only relay in my Spitfire was what the lovely people at Triumph deemed a safety feature and that was the 'night dimming' relay which dimmed the brake lights at night (when the sidelights/headlights were switched on) so you didn't dazzle the driver of the car behind if you were sat in traffic with your foot on the brake.

Needless to say I've now removed it!

I've often thought it would be a good to have brake/sidelights that dimmed at night, though some now have brake lights that flash on and off under heavy braking. 

[Horace42]

My wife tried to stop our engine but it kept running when she pushed the stop button.

To cut a long story short -  she had switched the ignition off - thinking that would stop the engine - but that failed - so she pushed the stop button - and nothing happened.

So telling her to switch the ignition 'on' - and then try again - which worked fine.

Which she couldn't understand until it was explained you need power 'on' to operate the 'stop' solenoid - then switch the ignition off after the engine stops.

If it is a faulty system, then live power must be proven to exist all the way via all the wires and connectors to the switches and relays. to the solenoid, with no breaks in the neutral return or bad earth return connections.