Navigateing the Tidal Trent to Keadby Junction

[Momac]

On 28/04/2017 at 16:11, Jacobyte said:

, looking to do the route at the end of June when mooring ends at King's Marina.

 

June would be good for day length. But do plan in advance so the tide times are convenient on your day of travel.

http://www.tides4fishing.com/uk/england/keadby

Arriving at high tide is easier for getting into the lock but means pushing the tide on the way down. Slow boats may prefer to arrive at low tide and wait for the flood to give enough depth to get into the lock. 

I expect to be on the river passing Cromwell on 24th June and stopping overnight at Torksey. However going to Hull and not going in at Keadby.

 

[PhilAtterley]

58 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

Arriving at high tide is easier for getting into the lock but means pushing the tide on the way down. Slow boats may prefer to arrive at low tide and wait for the flood to give enough depth to get into the lock. 

 

Unless someone is entirely happy at the prospect of having a close encounter with the 'Aegre' - the Trent's equivalent of the 'Severn Bore' - they need to be very selective and careful about picking their time to be hanging about in the river at Keadby at Low Water (Flood). Aegres can occur on the Trent along with big Spring tides, which in turn themselves occur on a 14-15 day cycle - the biggest tides usually being the fourth one after the New or Full Moon. The photo below shows a loaded barge aground in the river at Keadby being hit by an Aegre.  

Graveller Marnham. by Philip Sizer,

Edited May 3, 2017 by PhilAtterley

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, PhilAtterley said:

Unless someone is entirely happy at the prospect of having a close encounter with the 'Aegre' - the Trent's equivalent of the 'Severn Bore' - they need to be very selective and careful about picking their time to be hanging about in the river at Keadby at Low Water (Flood). Aegres can occur on the Trent along with big Spring tides, which in turn themselves occur on a 14-15 day cycle - the biggest tides usually being the fourth one after the New or Full Moon. The photo below shows a loaded barge aground in the river at Keadby being hit by an Aegre.  

Graveller Marnham. by Philip Sizer,

But then there is them as insists that Rivers are just wide canals, and no special precautions or knowledge needed.

[Momac]

It is important to seek advice from the lock keepers . Booking in advance a Keadby is essential. The lock keepers will advise if a passage plan is unsafe.

24th/25th June is no moon = springs with a 7.2m (predicted astronomical) tide at Hull.  A slightly higher 7.3m tide is predicted on the morning of 26th June. I expect the possibility of an Aegir cannot be excluded.

We went on a 6.9m (Hull) tide last July 3rd and there was no Trent Aegir. In fact the tide was half an hour late and quite reluctant to come in at all . A boat ahead of us grounded up from Keadby and we had to wait for the tide.   We would not wish to meet a significant  Aegir.   However a cruiser capable of being a sea boat can deal with it.

The predicted Aegir dates/times used to be published but I haven't been able to find any published data the last couple of years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[noddyboater]

It's always worth checking with the keepers whether it's possible to "do it the easy way" as Tony would say. 

I dropped down from Torksey to Stockwith on Tuesday, and had the usual advice of leaving Torksey pontoon just before high water and entering Stockwith lock on the ebb.

When I asked why I couldn't come down at low water and meet the flood at Stockwith the keeper immediately agreed that was a better plan. 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

It's always worth checking with the keepers whether it's possible to "do it the easy way" as Tony would say. 

I dropped down from Torksey to Stockwith on Tuesday, and had the usual advice of leaving Torksey pontoon just before high water and entering Stockwith lock on the ebb.

When I asked why I couldn't come down at low water and meet the flood at Stockwith the keeper immediately agreed that was a better plan. 

I think that is possibly because the keepers are not boaters, and, if you follow their advice and it goes 'wrong' they are potentially 'liable'.

The 'keeper' at Torksey had no idea about letting us into the lock - except he had been told that no boats are allowed into the lock until there is 3 foot of water over the cill. (I think he was just doing 'cover' for the keeper as when questioned he did say his 'normal' job was bank side maintenance)

[noddyboater]

The latest crop of keepers do seem to be very cautious when giving advice on time between locks/tide strength etc. A year or so back I arrived at Stockwith to lock out up to Torksey with the flood. Although I was on time the keeper informed me I couldn't go as I'd run out of tide in around an hour and a half.    I pointed out that it didn't matter as I'd be near to Torksey by then anyway, but he really wasn't happy and insisted it took well over 2 hours to make the trip. He did eventually let me out after wasting more time debating it, and the journey was made in well under 2 hours without drama. 

Since we lost the resident keeper at Stockwith I've had everything from one of the old boys from Cromwell,(who drove down by van just to pen me through) to a young chap who admitted he was pulled off maintainance duties on the bank.

[mrsmelly]

On 5/3/2017 at 08:36, Alan de Enfield said:

But then there is them as insists that Rivers are just wide canals, and no special precautions or knowledge needed.

Yes and of course you dont need VHF radio because I have a mobile fone blah di blah di bunkum di bunkum  

[Momac]

I have been trying to find out whether there could be an Aeigir on the spring tides around 24th/25th June . So far not found any hard evidence. Three different tide table I have found show different heights as they us e different datums.  However I suspect there could be an Aeigir . Therefore best not be on the river between Gainsborough and Keadby when the flood comes in (unless prepared to take on a large wave).

[Mac of Cygnet]

Came up the river from Keadby to W.Stockwith yesterday.  I was expecting to be sent out of Keadby on the beginning of the flood, but in fact found myself on the last of the ebb, with no help from the tide until at least half way. The other three boats were all heading for Torksey, and all faster than me, so I was soon left on my ownsome, until a large cruiser locking down after us came up behind me and stayed with me until W. Stockwith - I had the idea they were keeping an eye on this old guy in a little slow narrowboat, and if so I would like to thank them.

Getting in at Stockwith was a bit fraught, as the tide was running strongly by then, but I'm pleased to say It was a near-perfect landing.  But it was also absolutely perishing cold.  When am I going to be able to cast a clout?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

When am I going to be able to cast a clout?

When May is out.

(Or re-elected !!!!)

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

Came up the river from Keadby to W.Stockwith yesterday.  I was expecting to be sent out of Keadby on the beginning of the flood, but in fact found myself on the last of the ebb, with no help from the tide until at least half way. The other three boats were all heading for Torksey, and all faster than me, so I was soon left on my ownsome, until a large cruiser locking down after us came up behind me and stayed with me until W. Stockwith - I had the idea they were keeping an eye on this old guy in a little slow narrowboat, and if so I would like to thank them.

Getting in at Stockwith was a bit fraught, as the tide was running strongly by then, but I'm pleased to say It was a near-perfect landing.  But it was also absolutely perishing cold.  When am I going to be able to cast a clout?

Ahhh yes I have been there on such an occasion when we got there that particular time there was a hell of a flow and rounding up early and getting in was somewhat of a challenge especialy as I had to hang around outside whilst others were locked up. One of the boats with us couldnt do it and disappeared down round the corner and had to be rescued later, he was backwards as he went out of site trying to stem the flow with absolutely no chance. Bloomin freezin here today on toxford.

[PhilAtterley]

2 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

Came up the river from Keadby to W.Stockwith yesterday.  I was expecting to be sent out of Keadby on the beginning of the flood, but in fact found myself on the last of the ebb, with no help from the tide until at least half way. The other three boats were all heading for Torksey, and all faster than me, so I was soon left on my ownsome, until a large cruiser locking down after us came up behind me and stayed with me until W. Stockwith - I had the idea they were keeping an eye on this old guy in a little slow narrowboat, and if so I would like to thank them.

Getting in at Stockwith was a bit fraught, as the tide was running strongly by then, but I'm pleased to say It was a near-perfect landing.  But it was also absolutely perishing cold.  When am I going to be able to cast a clout?

Yesterday's daylight tide at Hull was predicted for 6.53 m's at 1705 (BST) - so, a relatively 'small' tide, and only 5 x tides after the smallest Neap of this set which was at 0245 (BST) on Friday morning.

That Sunday afternoon tide would have made Flood, in the sense of a rise in water level, at Keadby at around 1500 hrs, but would be unlikely to be running up at any sort of pace until the best part of an hour later. I would guess that you were in fact let out of Keadby Cut on the first of the Flood, but you might have thought it was the last of the Ebb because the river current would have been either slack or very sluggishly still running downriver. I would also guess that the time you were sent on your way might have had more to do with what time the lock keepers wanted to knock off and go home, rather than the ideal departure time for you and the other upriver boats. The best time for you to have aimed to arrive at Stockwith would have been around 1900 hrs, with the tide slacking off and only a few feet to rise up in the lock to canal level, thereby reducing the strong turbulence that pulls small boats about so much in the lock chamber there.

[PhilAtterley]

4 hours ago, MartynG said:

I have been trying to find out whether there could be an Aeigir on the spring tides around 24th/25th June . So far not found any hard evidence. Three different tide table I have found show different heights as they us e different datums.  However I suspect there could be an Aeigir . Therefore best not be on the river between Gainsborough and Keadby when the flood comes in (unless prepared to take on a large wave).

Those tides at around that time are predicted to make the sort of heights when you can start to expect small Aegres, which is from 8.0 m's (above CD) or higher. Barring tidal surges in the North Sea or tides that make well above prediction for any other reason, or continuing dry weather causing the Trent levels to drop exceptionally low along the whole length of the river, there will not be a significant Aegre, if there is one at all, on either of those days.

[Mac of Cygnet]

1 hour ago, PhilAtterley said:

Yesterday's daylight tide at Hull was predicted for 6.53 m's at 1705 (BST) - so, a relatively 'small' tide, and only 5 x tides after the smallest Neap of this set which was at 0245 (BST) on Friday morning.

That Sunday afternoon tide would have made Flood, in the sense of a rise in water level, at Keadby at around 1500 hrs, but would be unlikely to be running up at any sort of pace until the best part of an hour later. I would guess that you were in fact let out of Keadby Cut on the first of the Flood, but you might have thought it was the last of the Ebb because the river current would have been either slack or very sluggishly still running downriver. I would also guess that the time you were sent on your way might have had more to do with what time the lock keepers wanted to knock off and go home, rather than the ideal departure time for you and the other upriver boats. The best time for you to have aimed to arrive at Stockwith would have been around 1900 hrs, with the tide slacking off and only a few feet to rise up in the lock to canal level, thereby reducing the strong turbulence that pulls small boats about so much in the lock chamber there.

My thoughts exactly as we all exited from Keadby just before 1500hrs.

 thoughts exactly as we all exited from Keadby just before 1500hrs.

Edited to say that once into Stockwith lock there was no problem, as Neil (normally at Torksey) was on duty and is a very experienced lockie - even complimented me on my entrance! I'm used to being bounced around in wide locks, being based on the Rochdale and C&H, where water flows are very unpredictable

Edited May 8, 2017 by Mac of Cygnet

[noddyboater]

If arriving at Stockwith on a strong flood tide, I prefer to drop on the piled moorings upstream of the lock and wait for high water. This can be done easily from either direction as there is an area of slack water against the wall. Take a line off the bow, put the kettle on and wait a while instead of all that banging around! 

Admittedly some of the keepers don't encourage this, usually when you're the only boat to lock through before they go home.. Suggest they climb down and have a go at a clean entry if you get an impatient chap.

[peterboat]

I was reading today that the Trent has well below normal water in it, the Don is below normal and many other rivers around England/Wales are low to very low all according the Daily Mail

[PhilAtterley]

7 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

My thoughts exactly as we all exited from Keadby just before 1500hrs.

 thoughts exactly as we all exited from Keadby just before 1500hrs.

Edited to say that once into Stockwith lock there was no problem, as Neil (normally at Torksey) was on duty and is a very experienced lockie - even complimented me on my entrance! I'm used to being bounced around in wide locks, being based on the Rochdale and C&H, where water flows are very unpredictable

Allowing for what you said about your boat being on the slow side, you probably got to Stockwith close to about half-tide -  around 1800 hrs - when even a poorish Neap Flood would have had time to gather a bit of pace. If faced with the same situation again with a really swift tide running up at Stockwith, Keadby or Selby, and you do not want to wait for HW slack, lay the boat on the up-tide corner of the wall and motor in against a head spring - it's dead easy and works well, but only provided that you have got someone that knows how to handle ropes ashore, or you pass them an eye to drop over a stump/bollard and control the length yourself.

Edited May 8, 2017 by PhilAtterley

[Momac]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I was reading today that the Trent has well below normal water in it, the Don is below normal and many other rivers around England/Wales are low to very low all according the Daily Mail

Yes the Trent is quite low at present  and not much rain forecast.

 

6 hours ago, PhilAtterley said:

Those tides at around that time are predicted to make the sort of heights when you can start to expect small Aegres, which is from 8.0 m's (above CD) or higher. Barring tidal surges in the North Sea or tides that make well above prediction for any other reason, or continuing dry weather causing the Trent levels to drop exceptionally low along the whole length of the river, there will not be a significant Aegre, if there is one at all, on either of those days.

Thank's for that.

 

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

I was reading today that the Trent has well below normal water in it, the Don is below normal and many other rivers around England/Wales are low to very low all according the Daily Mail

I was saying to Kathy that the Soar was as low as it was when I came back from London in 2011, without reading the Daily Mail. BW were planning shortened lock times and stoppages at the start of the 2012 season and we know what happened next.....

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

I was reading today that the Trent has well below normal water in it, the Don is below normal and many other rivers around England/Wales are low to very low all according the Daily Mail

If it had been in the " Guardian " it would have been " Half empty "