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Navigateing the Tidal Trent to Keadby Junction


Jacobyte

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Hello would like some advice/info for going up to Keadby lock, I am a inexperienced boater when it comes to this part of the Trent, having previously brought my cruiser up to King's Marina from Sawley Marina and only owned the boat for just under 12 months with not much cruising done in that time, so any help would be appreciated, had thought of talking to lock keeper at Cromwell for advice on the river and doing research online to plan the route. Got books and a radio/information and life jackets, looking to do the route at the end of June when mooring ends at King's Marina.

Had thought about following some one to Keadby lock from Cromwell Lock.

Cruiser is a widebeam 2.80m Seamaster 23 built 1972, draught 0.48m, single diesel engine Perkin's 4108.

Thanks Mike.

Edited by Jacobyte
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My biggest concern with such an old boat and engine would be reliability. Although you should be going with the tide you will have to turn and face uptide at Keadby unless you time it just right and even then there may not be enough water over the cill to allow lock operation. The  cruise there will take many hours and how your hot engine will react to potentially running at full speed to go against the flow at Keadby is anyone's guess.

Certainly drain or pump whatever is lurking in the bottom of your fuel tank and change the fuel filter(s) well before setting off so you have time to find out if you have introduced any air leaks. Carry spare filters  and a suitable anchor is vital - just in case the engine fails. You will not want to be carried down to Trent Falls and the Humber.

You may find other river users intend to do it in two or three hops stopping at Torksy and then West Stockwith. I think it is a good idea to try to pair up with someone who is familiar with the river and also is a good waterman so that if you do have problems they stand a better chance of helping you.

As you will be doing it on a falling tide the Trent maps/guides from the Boating Association are probably a must to avoid  bars and sand banks although going upstream I felt they were marked well enough. I would suggest that you get them well before hand so you can study them at leisure.

You may have a radio but do you have a license to use it assuming that you are talking about Marine VHF?

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7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

My biggest concern with such an old boat and engine would be reliability. Although you should be going with the tide you will have to turn and face uptide at Keadby unless you time it just right and even then there may not be enough water over the cill to allow lock operation. The  cruise there will take many hours and how your hot engine will react to potentially running at full speed to go against the flow at Keadby is anyone's guess.

Certainly drain or pump whatever is lurking in the bottom of your fuel tank and change the fuel filter(s) well before setting off so you have time to find out if you have introduced any air leaks. Carry spare filters  and a suitable anchor is vital - just in case the engine fails. You will not want to be carried down to Trent Falls and the Humber.

You may find other river users intend to do it in two or three hops stopping at Torksy and then West Stockwith. I think it is a good idea to try to pair up with someone who is familiar with the river and also is a good waterman so that if you do have problems they stand a better chance of helping you.

As you will be doing it on a falling tide the Trent maps/guides from the Boating Association are probably a must to avoid  bars and sand banks although going upstream I felt they were marked well enough. I would suggest that you get them well before hand so you can study them at leisure.

You may have a radio but do you have a license to use it assuming that you are talking about Marine VHF?

Just to answer some of your questions, the boat engine was serviced just last year and by the looks of it I think it is a replacement engine but can't confirm this for definite, no paperwork, hoping to use the tide and get to Keadby Lock with enough water over the cill to get into the lock, the lock keeper tells you what time you should arrive to enter I read somewhere, the cruiser dose have a anchor and chain attached, the radio is a marine cobra vhf but I don't have a licence to use it, would only use in emergency situation, had looked into buying the maps/guides you mentioned as well. The plan is to stop overnight a Torksey then travel down to Keadby the next day.

I have watched YouTube videos of other boaters entering Keadby lock and have seen what maybe required to enter it, as you say though the reliability is my main concern is pushing the engine against the flow at Keadby lock entrance.

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The potential problem I see with the engine is that it may have a slight head gasket leak that is not noticeable at canal speed but could cause overheating at tidal river speeds - especially going up stream. Certainly give it plenty of revs for a fair while to test the cooling while still on the non-tidal river.

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38 minutes ago, Jacobyte said:

..............    .............   .............  ........... hoping to use the tide and get to Keadby Lock with enough water over the cill to get into the lock, the lock keeper tells you what time you should arrive to enter I read somewhere, the cruiser dose have a anchor and chain attached, the radio is a marine cobra vhf but I don't have a licence to use it, would only use in emergency situation, had looked into buying the maps/guides you mentioned as well. The plan is to stop overnight a Torksey then travel down to Keadby the next day.

There is an old thread on this Forum titled, I think, something like - " The tidal Trent - why not do it the easy way ?". It was started by a lifelong friend and acquaintance of mine, Tony Dunkley, who has well over half a Century of boating on the Trent to his name, mostly on commercial vessels from tugs and hoppers to barges of up to around 500 ton cargo capacity, but with a goodly helping of pleasure/holiday boating thrown in too. There were several attempts to sabotage the thread by one or two members, but if you ignore all the nonsense they posted you will find some very good advice on how to plan a downriver passage to Keadby, arriving there at around local High Water with negligible or no tide running and very little difference in water levels between the canal and the river.

I visit Tony D quite frequently, and I am down in Nottingham now, taking him his laptop back after repair. If you have any questions you would like to ask him, there are several options open to you. You could post them on here, and I will relay the answers, you can contact Tony on the 'Thunderboat' Forum, you can e-mail him at, > tony@canalrivertransport.com <, or you can phone him on 07553 294325. He will be glad to help you in any way he can.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

The potential problem I see with the engine is that it may have a slight head gasket leak that is not noticeable at canal speed but could cause overheating at tidal river speeds - especially going up stream. Certainly give it plenty of revs for a fair while to test the cooling while still on the non-tidal river.

Only you know what condition your engine is in and if it is reliable, I don't know why the above has started putting doubt on your engine reliability????

Your best doing it it two stages first to Torksy then next day to Keadby, the lock keeper will advise you on your time to leave Torksy to get in safely at Keadby, you'll run with the tide all the way, then you'll U-Turn about 75-100m after the lock to enter the lock running against the tide, you can normally see the sand bank next to the lock to keep a safe distance. I have never had to push my engine to get in unlike what the above suggests, the only time you may need to rev it high  is when you hit the slack water at the lock entrence to avoid the wall.

If your boat has the speed of a narrowboat without thrashing the engine you have nothing to worry about, don't let the above frighten you, it's not as bad as people suggest, it is however quite a boring run.

 

Edited by Northernboater
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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

The potential problem I see with the engine is that it may have a slight head gasket leak that is not noticeable at canal speed but could cause overheating at tidal river speeds - especially going up stream. Certainly give it plenty of revs for a fair while to test the cooling while still on the non-tidal river.

Actually when going upstream from Keadby the flow is usually faster than when going downstream ... if the timing with the tide is done correctly

 

4 hours ago, Jacobyte said:

Just to answer some of your questions, the boat engine was serviced just last year and by the looks of it I think it is a replacement engine but can't confirm this for definite, no paperwork, hoping to use the tide and get to Keadby Lock with enough water over the cill to get into the lock, the lock keeper tells you what time you should arrive to enter I read somewhere, the cruiser dose have a anchor and chain attached, the radio is a marine cobra vhf but I don't have a licence to use it, would only use in emergency situation, had looked into buying the maps/guides you mentioned as well. The plan is to stop overnight a Torksey then travel down to Keadby the next day.

I have watched YouTube videos of other boaters entering Keadby lock and have seen what maybe required to enter it, as you say though the reliability is my main concern is pushing the engine against the flow at Keadby lock entrance.

You will certainly need the vhf on the Trent - especially to contact the lock at Keadby just before you arrive. I have not known anyone be questioned about a vhf license but would suggest you do the vhf course - which can be done in Nottingham.  http://www.trentboathandling.co.uk/vhf_radio.php

It's a while since I went in at Keadby - it certainly is a  challenge. 

You must be expected at Keadby - otherwise the lock may not be manned .

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Northernboater said:

Yes but I doubt the OP will be getting his 1972 Seamaster 23  on the plane, 

Planing speeds are not necessary . I have done the journey from Torksey to Keadby and the return without going at planing speed. However the correct timing is critical and a lot less worry in an adequately  powered boat.

I know a lot of narrowboats do this trip although I cant imagine it would be enjoyable below West Stockwith  . The Seamaster should be easily capable of this journey.

 

 

Edited by MartynG
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27 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

It's a while since I went in at Keadby - it certainly is a  challenge. 

 

But it does NOT have to be, even for a first-timer. The now generally accepted method of timing the downriver arrival at Keadby to be well after half (local) Ebb with the tide running swiftly down past the lock and barely sufficient water left in the river to float even a shallow draughted pleasure boat over the 5' - 6' high mudbank that permanently adorns the lock tail these days, makes no sense whatsoever. There is a much better alternative available to everyone - see my previous post !

Edited by PhilAtterley
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13 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Planing speeds are not necessary . I have done the journey from Torksey to Keadby and the return without going at planing speed. However the correct timing is critical and a lot less worry in an adequately  powered boat.

I know a lot of narrowboats do this trip although I cant imagine it would be enjoyable below West Stockwith  . The Seamaster should be easily capable of this journey.

 

 

It was a joke,  as I thought you were kidding that it's not boring if your blasting up and down in something like a Broom or a Fairline. I can tell you it is boring if your doing it regular on a narrowboat.

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12 hours ago, Northernboater said:

Only you know what condition your engine is in and if it is reliable, I don't know why the above has started putting doubt on your engine reliability????

snip

This is a 1973 boat with an engine that the new owner knows nothing about and only THINKS may have been overhauled. The engine would certainly have been offered as an original fitment. I would suggest that to take such a combination that recently had only been used on non-tidal and canal work onto a tidal river without ensuring it was capable of dealing with tidal conditions is irresponsible to say the least. I would also suggest that anyone with any knowledge of engines would be negligent to encourage such an endeavour. Remember reliable on a canal is different to reliable on a  river or tideway as probably hundreds of canal boat owners with undersized skin tanks have found over the years.

The engine is probably a heat exchanger engine so when was the raw water impeller last changed? When were the debris that tend to build up on the inlet side of the heat exchanger and any gearbox oil cooler last cleared? Both can cause overheating at higher revs but not at canal speed.

I agree the boat is probably more suitable than a narrowboat although it may get a bit lively at times but it will never be suitable if the owner is confident in his engine AND that confidence is based on knowledge and experience.

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10 hours ago, Northernboater said:

It was a joke,  as I thought you were kidding that it's not boring if your blasting up and down in something like a Broom or a Fairline. I can tell you it is boring if your doing it regular on a narrowboat.

Blasting along at 20+ knots , where permitted below Gainsborough and on the Humber , certainly isn't boring .

Even a small cruiser will , at low revs, easily want do a couple of knots more than a narrowboat which I think makes all the difference between feeling like leisurely progress is being made compared to feeling hardly any motion. 

I am perhaps biased but I dont find any part of the Trent boring. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

The Nene between Witham and Dog-in-a-Doublet is more boring, I think. I resorted to counting the cows, which at least move (sometimes).

 

You could see actual, real cows - how exciting.

On the Witham the only signs of life is the grass (or the weed) growing

 

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I have navigated the Trent from Trentlock to Torksey and return and from Trentlock to Keadby in a narrowboat. 

I had an anchor, life-jackets and VHF. I also had the Boating Association publications and Nicholson guide. 

VHF is a luxury that to contact the lock keepers with is not necessary, however Nicholson states that below Gainsborough the Trent is controlled by ABP who require craft to have 2 crew and a VHF radio. 

The first journey was only to Torksey and we booked our passage through Cromwell Lock by telephone. The lock keeper agreed with my plan and let us through the lock at or just before high tide at Cromwell so that we travelled to Torksey with the ebb. The Boating Association booklets were OK but when you really needed their advice (such as which arch to go under) I found the information about grafitti of little help. The river is sign posted (take binoculars to read well in advance) and the navigational notes in Nicholson are invaluable. 

The second journey to Keadby we planned to stop at Gainsborough pontoon. The lock keeper at Cromwell advised against it because of high spring tides. A man in the pub at Torksey advised that sometimes stones were thrown at boats moored at Gainsborough. We left Cromwell again at Cromwell high tide and made an uneventful journey to Torksey. We left Torksey the next day an hour before high tide Torksey and pushed the incoming tide for just under an hour. The lock keeper at Keadby telephoned and asked about progress. He advised us to speed up. We had an uneventful journey until we got to Keadby. Passing Keadby bridge I stayed too close to the right hand bank and ran aground on a sand bank just before the lock entrance. We reversed off and entered Keadby lock with perhaps a little too much power but stayed clear of the lock walls. The Keadby lock keeper was surprised at the advice not to moor at Gainsborough and reckoned that with good mooring ropes there would have been no problem. 

The non tidal locks were not manned at that time of the year. Observe the amber traffic lights and do go into the lock approaches fully to moor up. 

Don't hang around on the trip from Torksey to Keadby and I am sure that you will have a great day. 

This video gives some idea of how big the Trent is against a narrowboat and encourages you to wear life jackets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTzyAoAuBV4

 

Edited by keith.
Keadby not Stockwith
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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Blasting along at 20+ knots , where permitted below Gainsborough and on the Humber , certainly isn't boring .

Even a small cruiser will , at low revs, easily want do a couple of knots more than a narrowboat which I think makes all the difference between feeling like leisurely progress is being made compared to feeling hardly any motion. 

I am perhaps biased but I dont find any part of the Trent boring. 

 

 

The Trent is awesome especialy if people have only done little backwaters like the Thames for instance. Its my fave bit of our inland waterways and most interesting especialy below Gainsborough and Keadby.

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5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

This is a 1973 boat with an engine that the new owner knows nothing about and only THINKS may have been overhauled. The engine would certainly have been offered as an original fitment. I would suggest that to take such a combination that recently had only been used on non-tidal and canal work onto a tidal river without ensuring it was capable of dealing with tidal conditions is irresponsible to say the least. I would also suggest that anyone with any knowledge of engines would be negligent to encourage such an endeavour. Remember reliable on a canal is different to reliable on a  river or tideway as probably hundreds of canal boat owners with undersized skin tanks have found over the years.

The engine is probably a heat exchanger engine so when was the raw water impeller last changed? When were the debris that tend to build up on the inlet side of the heat exchanger and any gearbox oil cooler last cleared? Both can cause overheating at higher revs but not at canal speed.

I agree the boat is probably more suitable than a narrowboat although it may get a bit lively at times but it will never be suitable if the owner is confident in his engine AND that confidence is based on knowledge and experience.

I have been on several trips on the tidal Trent where other boats in the flotilla have run in to overheating problems that they never have had on canals. The run is hours long at high power and shows up any shortcomings in the engine and cooling system. With preperation it is an enjoyable trip, but you need to be sure of your boat. Going for a trip against the current on the non tidal river, with another boat to assist if there are problems woud be a way to build confidence in your engine and cooling system.

Jenny

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7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you would like to try boring - do the Witham'.

The most exciting part is counting the tops of the telegraph poles that you can just see poking over the high banks.

I have done the Witham a few times.  It was in our previous boat which was a 25ft cruiser ......the boat  could fit under the bridges through Lincoln with half an inch to spare (which was not boring!).

Lincoln and Lincolnshire are of interest to me in that Lincoln is my place of birth. I escaped at the age of 18.

Once past Bardney the Witham to Boston is at least a reasonable depth ......but  occasionally can be clogged with weed.  A shame there aren't more boats on it.

 

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