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Groovy windlass


Neil2

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The other day I was on the receiving end of a lecture from an old guy who advised against our use of one of those sort/long throw windlasses that are made up of two separate plates welded together.  This sort of thing https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/as-063.aspx  

I guess the design is easier/cheaper to make and lighter than a "solid" version would be but the gentleman explained that the use of this type of windlass is starting to wear grooves in the paddle spindles which eventually will cause problems.  I was going to say that when that happens we'll go back to the old type but I got the impression that it wouldn't have been taken lightly.  

As I live in fear of doing things on the canal that will mark me down as a wally I thought I had better check this out with the forum.  

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I had an old guy moan at me because I did let down the sluices before I opened the lock gate.   I totally ignored and carried on which he then said he been doing canals for years and then probably something about the younger generation.  I totally ignored and just carried on.

Edit; actually it was the other way around, I closed the sluices before closing the gates.

I've not seen any grooves in the spindles in my years of boating, probably get worn back down by the solid brigade :-)

Edited by Robbo
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4 minutes ago, dave moore said:

I'm an old guy, I agree with both old farts. The new style windlasses are vile, I can't think of a good use for them. " Gates before paddles " has always been my choice, in that if the levels aren't exactly equal then the paddle needs raising again. I suppose it matters little......but I'm sticking with the practices I learned years ago from some very knowledgeable boaters.

 

Dave

Just edited ma post, it was winding down the paddles before closing the gates.  I could never see the reasoning for his argument.  I can do with the 70's windlass.

Edited by Robbo
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On 27/04/2017 at 13:47, Robbo said:

Just edited ma post, it was winding down the paddles before closing the gates.  I could never see the reasoning for his argument.  I can do with the 70's windlass.

 

This is because pushing a gate closed with a big hole in it (i.e. with the paddle UP) must be marginally less effort than closing it with the paddle down. Consequently that's the way I always do it but I suspect there is hardly any difference.

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9 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Just edited ma post, it was winding down the paddles before closing the gates.  I could never see the reasoning for his argument.  I can do with the 70's windlass.

I think the only conceivable argument is that in some locks the paddle rack can foul the wall, and so if you are winding them down while in contact with the wall you might damage the rack or the wall. But it's a rather tenuous point, compared with a boat bashing the lock gates on the way into the lock ...

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18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is because pushing a gate closed with a big hole in it (i.e. with the paddle UP) must be marginally less effort than closing it with the paddle down. Consequently that's the way I always do it but I suspect there is hardly any difference.

It does make a difference as my wife proved to a young fellow just the other day.  He couldn't shift the bottom gate owing to the vacuum/pressure but as soon as he re-raised the paddle hey presto.  

 

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On 27/04/2017 at 14:17, Neil2 said:

It does make a difference as my wife proved to a young fellow just the other day.  He couldn't shift the bottom gate owing to the vacuum/pressure but as soon as he re-raised the paddle hey presto.  

 

 

No, I said closing a gate before closing the paddles...

Yes opening the top gate(s) before closing the paddles is mandatory or the leakage from the bottom gates will rapidly re-create an inch or two of level difference, preventing you opening the top gates. And vice versa to a lesser degree.

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56 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

The other day I was on the receiving end of a lecture from an old guy who advised against our use of one of those sort/long throw windlasses that are made up of two separate plates welded together.  This sort of thing https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/as-063.aspx  

I guess the design is easier/cheaper to make and lighter than a "solid" version would be but the gentleman explained that the use of this type of windlass is starting to wear grooves in the paddle spindles which eventually will cause problems.  I was going to say that when that happens we'll go back to the old type but I got the impression that it wouldn't have been taken lightly.  

As I live in fear of doing things on the canal that will mark me down as a wally I thought I had better check this out with the forum.  

He has a point in my book. Small contact areas of a hard metal windlass will certainly cause more wear than a broader contact and by a softer metal. Funny how such folk sometimes come across a bit like a telling off until you see their point (or even pretend to) when you suddenly seem to make their day! Even if you pretend, you'd be wise to think their point through later in case it is wisdom - you can always disregard it if it's not and still feel good about making his day.

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The only thing I like about them is they give a choice of leverage when you can use the long arm for hard paddles, or the short arm to avoid knocking your knuckles on the beam.

As for grooves, if it happens, it will mean this type of key will likely wear itself out first, thus eventually the worn key when matching the paddle spigot grooves means it will not get a proper grip - but leaving the traditional key able to carry on working.

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No, I said closing a gate before closing the paddles...

Yes opening the top gate(s) before closing the paddles is mandatory or the leakage from the bottom gates will rapidly re-create an inch or two of level difference, preventing you opening the top gates. And vice versa to a lesser degree.

Yes, and also in a flight the wave from emptying the the next lock up will reach you as you are about to open the top gates. 

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8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No, I said closing a gate before closing the paddles...

Yes opening the top gate(s) before closing the paddles is mandatory or the leakage from the bottom gates will rapidly re-create an inch or two of level difference, preventing you opening the top gates. And vice versa to a lesser degree.

I was referring to a closing gate situation.  With the gate fully open flush with the lock wall there's often a combination of pressure/vacuum that conspires to stop you closing it until you open the paddle.   In the situation I described, this fit young chap suffered a blow to his dignity after closing the paddle he desperately tried with all his strength to shut the gate but it wouldn't budge.  My nine stone spouse then calmly reopened the paddle and pulled the gate shut with one hand.  It was one of the Cheshire locks on the T&M.

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When I was young and good looking (now I'm just good looking) an old boy carefully explained to me it was a good idea to keep a pocket of loose change when lockwheeling.

His point was that when you place your lock key on the spindle, if you can see a gap between the spindle and any flat of the windlass then you can slip a coin in and help the life of the lock gear.

I don't think he hung around as I recall I responded with some sort of smart Rs answer like: -

Wouldn't it be better to just offer the loose change to whomever was standing on the bank and get them to do the lock for you?

Over the years I have actually employed his reasoning.

I don't think I'd bother wasting my time handing it on to a youngster myself though.  Nowadays young people seem to be such cocky little horrors.

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On 27/04/2017 at 14:40, Neil2 said:

I was referring to a closing gate situation.  With the gate fully open flush with the lock wall there's often a combination of pressure/vacuum that conspires to stop you closing it until you open the paddle.   In the situation I described, this fit young chap suffered a blow to his dignity after closing the paddle he desperately tried with all his strength to shut the gate but it wouldn't budge.  My nine stone spouse then calmly reopened the paddle and pulled the gate shut with one hand.  It was one of the Cheshire locks on the T&M.

 

My apologies. I didn't read your post properly. Or rather I misinterpreted what you were saying.. 

I've yet, however, to encounter the circumstances you describe. I have, however, encountered paddles that foul the brickwork if closed while the gate is open. 

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The other small reason for leaving the paddles up whilst closing the gate is that it reduces the sweeping effect of, say, the top gate  which can otherwise mean the lock is marginally higher than the pound - with a consequential re-opening of the gate as soon as you leave it alone.  It's more noticeable on single gated locks as there is little room for the swept water to escape over the last part of the arc. 

CRT is addressing this problem by arranging for the few locks that don't already have leaky gates to be retro-fitted.

The advantage of dropping the paddles whilst the gate is open is that it can usefully employs some of the time waiting whilst the boat comes through.

 

 

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I would guess that is a + for( if they still are )tapered spindles & tapered head  windlasses they take up the misfit/wear with the simplicity of sliding less/further on the spindle over the years they have introduced so called improvements  but in a lot of cases have gone back to the old original design/construction as it was found  better than the so called improvement

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3 hours ago, Neil2 said:

The other day I was on the receiving end of a lecture from an old guy who advised against our use of one of those sort/long throw windlasses that are made up of two separate plates welded together.  This sort of thing https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/as-063.aspx  

I guess the design is easier/cheaper to make and lighter than a "solid" version would be but the gentleman explained that the use of this type of windlass is starting to wear grooves in the paddle spindles which eventually will cause problems.  I was going to say that when that happens we'll go back to the old type but I got the impression that it wouldn't have been taken lightly.  

As I live in fear of doing things on the canal that will mark me down as a wally I thought I had better check this out with the forum.  

I must say I did wonder if that would be the case with such small areas of contact.

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3 hours ago, Dave Payne said:

Can kind of see where he is coming from, if its not a tight fit it might start to put a nick on each corner, but how many people use them and how long would it take, and does it rally matter.

Spindles are already wearing due I understand to wrong size windlasses. It will matter when you come to a lock and have to use a set of Stilsons because the windlass wont grip the shaft (That wont happen because CRT will have wasted more money changing them before they reach that state)

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4 hours ago, john6767 said:

I don't like those fabricated windlasses, so I guess that makes me an old fart.  Most of the hire companies do seem to be using them now.

I will not have them on our boats, nor will I sell them and I've made my views on them quite clear to the guy who makes them - who is in every other respect the nicest fellow you could ever wish to meet.

The spindles at Hillmorton (for example) are clearly worn, due seemingly to the inability of 99% of the boating public to realise the small eye on a windlass has a purpose, and the open frame type windlasses will only be making it worse. They also have a safety implication in my view - less contact area with the spindle so they are more likely to work loose.

As no-one seems to make decent steel windlasses anymore they're on my roundtoit list once I've finished playing with cans.

I was taught that you drop the paddles while the boat is leaving/entering the lock as that's the quickest way to get on. Gates that won't swing are down to poor balancing and fitting.

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1 minute ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

I will not have them on our boats, nor will I sell them and I've made my views on them quite clear to the guy who makes them - who is in every other respect the nicest fellow you could ever wish to meet.

The spindles at Hillmorton (for example) are clearly worn, due seemingly to the inability of 99% of the boating public to realise the small eye on a windlass has a purpose, and the open frame type windlasses will only be making it worse. They also have a safety implication in my view - less contact area with the spindle so they are more likely to work loose.

As no-one seems to make decent steel windlasses anymore they're on my roundtoit list once I've finished playing with cans.

I was taught that you drop the paddles while the boat is leaving/entering the lock as that's the quickest way to get on. Gates that won't swing are down to poor balancing and fitting.

If you start making a decent single header windlass that has the right balance I would be interested. I don't like double headed windlasses as they tend to be head end heavy and too bulky.

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