Power Systems Survey - Zero-emissions/quiet generator?

[samsharp99]

7 hours ago, stegra said:

It would be handy if daytime solar power excess (dump load) could be used for HHO separation and then store the hydrogen for use later. I guess compressing and storing the gas would be very difficult.

Yes - that would be great but at the moment the reformers are only economical on large-scale (e.g. at solar/wind farms or for dumping excess grid generation.

1 hour ago, Robbo said:

There's no such thing as zero emissions as you've got to produce the hydrogen and get it too the boat!   Also most people don't care, we just want something affordable, and "just works", we don't want to switch it on, set it up (like a portable genny). 

For a similar size hydrogen cylinder as a 13kg gas cylinder how many kWh will it provide?

To be honest most who would be interested prob have already considered a Efoy system already.  The fuel is easier to transport than hydrogen and provides good boating needs already.  Price tag per kWh is too high for it to really take off.

another question, is this system a portable system or available built in.  Reason why people go for portable is just because of the cheap cost of the genny.  Most of us boaters want a fully automated built in genny, basically like a battery that never runs out of power.

A 20l cylinder (which is 325x550mm) would give around 7kWh. I have seen the Efoy systems but they only have an output of around 105W - I'd be looking to design a system of at least 500W, most likely around the 1kW mark.

I see that it would be a portable system as that would simplify things in terms of BSS / installation.

17 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Plus, generally, inland boaters look for the cheapest possible option. Look how many say "£129 for a SmartGauge???!!"

One of the challenges of appealing to the boater market!

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

There are already methanol powered fuel cells sold for marine use and several years ago I wrote an article about alternative power sources including diesel and methanol fuel cells. (email me if you want a copy).

Hydrogen powered fuel cells are already in use in the construction industry as portable power sources but the problem seems to be getting sufficient fuel capacity. Hydrogen is not that easy to store in bulk as I understand it will not liquify like LPG so it is only stored as a compressed gas or combined with another material as a hydride.

I suspect eh fuel problems and cost will make this uneconomic for the majority of boaters.

 

Yes please - I'll drop you a message.

That's the reason for the survey - I am investigating possible options but there's little point in continuing at this stage (as time progresses, these things become cheaper) if I can't make something that would appeal from a cost/performance perspective. I do see it as a real alternative to generators / engine charging - so long as I can get it to work at the right cost.

[MtB]

On 27/04/2017 at 09:50, WotEver said:

I think the survey assumes 12V operation so just enter "60"

 

You're probably right, but I still don't have much regard for a survey that asks for power, requests an answer in AH and won't let you state the units of your answer.

Perhaps Sam will correct this problem. I'll try the survey again later.

[samsharp99]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ah now the survey is annoying me now. It seems to be rejecting my answer to the question "What is your approximate daily power consumption (in Ah)?"

I am entering "30AH at 24V" and it is demanding I enter only a number.

(And getting picky, power is measured in Watts not Ah as requested in the question.)

Apologies - I've fixed it on the survey to allow you enter whatever the hell you like! Sorry for the frustration.

Instant power is measured in Watts, daily power consumption is typically measured in Ah or kWh (but you're right you need the voltage if Ah, I had assumed it was @12V - I had a question before about what voltage your system was running at but took it out).

Edited April 27, 2017 by samsharp99

[MtB]

On 27/04/2017 at 09:56, samsharp99 said:

Apologies - I've fixed it on the survey to allow you enter whatever the hell you like! Sorry for the frustration.

 

Apologies for getting short tempered but units are IMPORTANT. I'll try it again.

On 27/04/2017 at 09:56, samsharp99 said:

Instant power is measured in Watts, daily power consumption is typically measured in Ah or kWh.

 

No it isn't!

Energy consumption perhaps, but power is time-independent. Watts, horsepower etc are the units of power measurement. 

[peterboat]

I had same problems as Mike, my Whispergen runs for the winter only, it does 3 hours a day which makes up for the missing solar, and heats the boat [I have a Rayburn Royal as well]. 900 watts of solar seems to cope with my summer use of power along with trips out. Anyway Sam best of luck with this but I dont think we will ever see Hydrogen cars, electric is to far on now and provides for full autonomous operation,  which is the way forward. But for boats it would make a great power source, with built in storage cylinders so they are all electric powered. You would just have to have Hydrogen production down on the rivers and canals

Edited April 27, 2017 by peterboat

[samsharp99]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

Apologies for getting short tempered but units are IMPORTANT. I'll try it again.

No it isn't!

Energy consumption perhaps, but power is time-independent. Watts, horsepower etc are the units of power measurement. 

Ok, the terminology isn't 100% accurate if you're being pedantic - I've used 'power consumption' interchangeably with 'energy consumption'. Thanks for the feedback.

[MtB]

On 27/04/2017 at 10:04, samsharp99 said:

Ok, the terminology isn't 100% accurate if you're being pedantic - I've used 'power consumption' interchangeably with 'energy consumption'. Thanks for the feedback.

 

If you can't tell the difference between power and energy you're not going to get on very well with the technical people on here. Regarding it as pedantry is really odd given your line of business.  I'd expect you to know and appreciate the difference between power and energy.

I'll suspend my attempt at filling in your survey then while you think about that.

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[samsharp99]

I do know and appreciate the difference. Power is the measure of energy use per unit time (measured in Watts). If you multiply the power by a period of time (as for 'daily' power consumption), you get back to 'energy' - this is typically joules, but in electrical systems it's more commonly measured in Watt-Seconds/Minutes/Hours etc.). One Kilowatt-Hour is the amount of energy/power consumed when you use 1kW for 1 hour. If this 1kWh was consumed at 12V, you can divide by 12 to give you the energy/power consumed in Ah.

[Robbo]

36 minutes ago, samsharp99 said:

A 20l cylinder (which is 325x550mm) would give around 7kWh. I have seen the Efoy systems but they only have an output of around 105W - I'd be looking to design a system of at least 500W, most likely around the 1kW mark.

I see that it would be a portable system as that would simplify things in terms of BSS / installation.

I'm guessing the cylinder is fairly heavy as well.   This is the main problem even more than cost.  7kWh is not a lot (it's very poor to be honest and I thought it would be alot more!) and would last less than a week for most boaters in winter.

Your main competitor would be along the lines of Efoy.   It's max output doesn't matter as we use these gennys for mainly battery charging so it's daily ah's it can provide is the important part, been built in and easier handling of fuel is a major advantage over using your Hydrogen system.   A 10 litre cartridge on the Efoy system is around 11kWH and is only 230 x 193 x 318 mm, 8.4kg.

[samsharp99]

1 minute ago, Robbo said:

I'm guessing the cylinder is fairly heavy as well.   This is the main problem even more than cost.  7kWh is not a lot (it's very poor to be honest and I thought it would be alot more!) and would last less than a week for most boaters in winter.

Your main competitor would be along the lines of Efoy.   It's max output doesn't matter as we use these gennys for mainly battery charging so it's daily ah's it can provide is the important part, been built in and easier handling of fuel is a major advantage over using your Hydrogen system.   A 10 litre cartridge on the Efoy system is around 11kWH and is only 230 x 193 x 318 mm, 8.4kg.

The 20l cylinders that are currently available to buy online are about 22kg. There are other alternatives to compressed hydrogen that offer higher energy densities - metal hydride is a powder that chemically stores the hydrogen but they're not currently available to consumers (and they're refillable as well, like an LPG bottle). I accept that I might be a few years too 'early' to release something that would be economically viable but if I at least understand what 'economically viable' is now, I'll know when the time is right. 

[Robbo]

2 minutes ago, samsharp99 said:

The 20l cylinders that are currently available to buy online are about 22kg. There are other alternatives to compressed hydrogen that offer higher energy densities - metal hydride is a powder that chemically stores the hydrogen but they're not currently available to consumers (and they're refillable as well, like an LPG bottle). I accept that I might be a few years too 'early' to release something that would be economically viable but if I at least understand what 'economically viable' is now, I'll know when the time is right. 

IMHO, something that is built in, quiet and you rarely have to revisit for fueling is the system that people will pay a premium for (within reason).   I know I would (but not at Efoy running cost prices!).

Competing against portable devices and you're just competing with the bottom end of the market where people really just want cheap.   Even a premium portable generator is "cheap".

For me I have a built in diesel genny that's automated to charge the batteries when needed, I have to provide fuel for it around twice a year.