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Power Systems Survey - Zero-emissions/quiet generator?


samsharp99

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I am working on a concept for a new zero-emission power system (a generator based on hydrogen fuel cells) which I was hoping to target at the narrowboat market.

The reason why I think this would be a really good market for fuel cells is that they can produce considerable power (I'm initially looking at a 1kW system but could potentially go between 500W up to 2/4kW), run much quieter than generators/engines (the only moving part is the cooling fans) and they produce only water as emissions (no CO2 or other harmful emissions from petrol/diesel engines). The availability of hydrogen gas has improved significantly with being able to order bottles online from BOC. I see the system I'm designing as a replacement to using a generator or running your engine for charging (e.g. at night when the noise of a generator is frowned upon or during winter where solar doesn't meet your power requirements).

I am a liveaboard boater myself and have been looking to upgrade my power system to allow me to stay off-grid for longer than a few days at a time and having worked for a fuel cell company for over 3 years, I resented the idea of buying a generator for 'topping up' if my solar panels don't provide enough output.

I'd love to find out more about what power systems you're currently using and whether you would be in the market or interested in a zero-emission power system for charging your batteries. To gather this information, I have created a survey which I would love for as many of you as possible to fill out: https://goo.gl/forms/3T0cPaYYei73rPhy2

Feel free to comment or message me if you have any questions. If there's a lot of interest, I might see if I can get a stand at the Crick Boat Show to be available to talk to people (I'll be there anyway, just maybe not with a stand).

I have a website: http://www.marinecleanpower.com

Edited by samsharp99
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I have worked for a fuel cell company as a software engineer for over 3 years before leaving to set up my own business. I wrote software for testing the fuel cells and fuel cell systems (from 5W to 100kW in power rating) so I understand them pretty well and I still have many contacts within the company/industry. I am a professional engineer with a specialism in control software with over 10 years experience.

At the moment, the running costs would be significantly higher than diesel/petrol but that's the reason why one of the questions on the survey asks what you would be willing to pay per kWh of power (with zero harmful emissions) for such a system. At the moment, there is very little consumer demand for hydrogen which makes it more expensive than diesel/petrol/LPG. One of the biggest improvements to this was the ability to order cylinders of Hydrogen online through BOC which shows that availability is increasing (and will continue to do so...as more H2 fueled cars become available and the H2 infrastructure improves) and that only happened in the last few months. My dream is that one day marinas/chandlers would stock H2 bottles just like they stock LPG and that would bring the cost down significantly.

In any case - I would appreciate your answers on the survey. :)

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19 minutes ago, samsharp99 said:

I

I am a liveaboard boater myself and have been looking to upgrade my power system to allow me to stay off-grid for longer than a few days at a time and having worked for a fuel cell company for over 3 years, I resented the idea of buying a generator for 'topping up' if my solar panels don't provide enough output.

 

I am a liveaboard boater myself and have stayed off grid now for longer than a few days... the last 8 years in fact. I have never worked for a fuel cell company and run my engine when my solar doesn't provide enough power.

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Sure - I said I was looking to upgrade my system - I currently have 440Ah of batteries and no solar so it only lasts 2-3 days without a shore supply. I've been based at a marina for most of my time aboard so I generally have a shore hookup but I'm looking to spend more time away so I wouldn't have a hookup. I'm already planning on buying some panels but unless I completely fill the roof, I won't be able to get 100% of my power requirements from solar alone so I'd still need to top-up with either a generator or running my engine.

Do you run your engine or a generator just for power? If not - how many watts of solar panels do you have? I'm genuinely interested in how other boaters meet their power needs - and that's most of what the survey is asking so I'd appreciate any input you had.

Edited by samsharp99
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3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Oh no, not another gas locker! Or would the bottle float above the boat on a bit of string. 

That could be a bit of a nuisance. Apart from the air draught issues you'd need more ballast...Er.. The upside could be if you had a bottle at each end it could be useful when in a shallow pound.

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On 26/04/2017 at 23:12, rusty69 said:

Oh no, not another gas locker! Or would the bottle float above the boat on a bit of string. 

 

Dear OP, this board can hand out some pretty juvenile piss-taking. Please don't take it to heart. Welcome to the forum!

I'm currently installing a Stirling-cycle diesel powered WhisperGen to fulfill the exact need you have identified. The WisperGen is no longer available since the factory in NZ was lost to the earthquake, but I'm reliably informed other similar devices are in development.

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There's no such thing as zero emissions as you've got to produce the hydrogen and get it too the boat!   Also most people don't care, we just want something affordable, and "just works", we don't want to switch it on, set it up (like a portable genny). 

For a similar size hydrogen cylinder as a 13kg gas cylinder how many kWh will it provide?

To be honest most who would be interested prob have already considered a Efoy system already.  The fuel is easier to transport than hydrogen and provides good boating needs already.  Price tag per kWh is too high for it to really take off.

I have a inbuilt 4kw diesel genny, cost to run is around 1litre an hour for around a 2kw average load.  If the Efoy was an affordable running cost that type of system would be perfect for me where the batteries take the initial hit and the genny constantly charges at a low amp covering your daily needs.

another question, is this system a portable system or available built in.  Reason why people go for portable is just because of the cheap cost of the genny.  Most of us boaters want a fully automated built in genny, basically like a battery that never runs out of power.

Edited by Robbo
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Sounds interesting. If/when you are getting near a commercial system it would be worth making sure that the boat safety scheme peoplle and marine insurance people are involved. As mentioned before H2 needs to vent up and some propane lockers could allow build up in the locker, or elsewhere in the boat unless modified. Probably need installers trained to make the appropriate mods. There is a hydrogen fuel cell powered boat moored outside Birmingham Uni they developed a few years back that I'm sure you are aware of.

Jenny

Edited to add: Survey done. Good luck with the project.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Hi Sam,

I've completed your survey on your very smart and professional-looking website. Hopefully others here will also, as this place is a veritable font of knowledge and opinion, not least on electrical power systems.

It's good to see you looking at narrowboats for your venture since I think they are a good example of off-grid electrical consumption. It is a small market though and not one with a high proportion of early adopters!  I wish you luck with your work.

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On 27/04/2017 at 08:54, Murflynn said:

Bristol made a big thing about investing in an experimental hydrogen powered ferry boat in the Floating harbour a few years ago.

Since it was first demonstrated I have never seen it move.  Moored up near SS Great Britain.

 

It's still there, I saw it on Monday. It looks as though its in general use as a ferry or trip boat or something, but no passengers or staff visible anywhere. I meant to investigate closer but was distracted by something even more interesting. Then my harbour licence ran out and I left the harbour without properly checking it out.

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23 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

Bristol made a big thing about investing in an experimental hydrogen powered ferry boat in the Floating harbour a few years ago.

Since it was first demonstrated I have never seen it move.  Moored up near SS Great Britain.

And then there's the "world's first" solar powered Narrowboat moored at Edgebaston. That doesn't get about much either!  

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18 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

It's good to see you looking at narrowboats for your venture since I think they are a good example of off-grid electrical consumption. It is a small market though and not one with a high proportion of early adopters!

Plus, generally, inland boaters look for the cheapest possible option. Look how many say "£129 for a SmartGauge???!!"

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9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Dear OP, this board can hand out some pretty juvenile piss-taking. Please don't take it to heart. Welcome to the forum!

Apologies for my glib comment. Survey completed in way of recompense. 

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There are already methanol powered fuel cells sold for marine use and several years ago I wrote an article about alternative power sources including diesel and methanol fuel cells. (email me if you want a copy).

Hydrogen powered fuel cells are already in use in the construction industry as portable power sources but the problem seems to be getting sufficient fuel capacity. Hydrogen is not that easy to store in bulk as I understand it will not liquify like LPG so it is only stored as a compressed gas or combined with another material as a hydride.

I suspect the fuel problems and cost will make this uneconomic for the majority of boaters.

 

Edited to add - yes welcome to the forum.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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On 27/04/2017 at 09:33, rusty69 said:

Apologies for my glib comment. Survey completed in way of recompense. 

 

Decent of you to apologise. I should have said to the OP he is more than welcome to hand back as good as he gets and it will generally be taken in good heart!

I'll do the survey myself shortly.

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Ah now the survey is annoying me now. It seems to be rejecting my answer to the question "What is your approximate daily power consumption (in Ah)?"

I am entering "30AH at 24V" and it is demanding I enter only a number.

(And getting picky, power is measured in Watts not Ah as requested in the question.)

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ah now the survey is annoying me now. It seems to be rejecting my answer to the question "What is your approximate daily power consumption (in Ah)?"

I am entering "30AH at 24V" and it is demanding I enter only a number.

(And getting picky, power is measured in Watts not Ah as requested in the question.)

I think the survey assumes 12V operation so just enter "60"

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