Red Cabin Tops

[cheshire~rose]

The cabin top on Python has been a bit of a nightmare for rust for a good while so I tested a little rust patch at the tail end of the summer and found that it had skim of body filler over the entire cabin top with multiple layers of paint underneath before you reached metal - but it was impossible to find an area of metal that, once uncovered, was not rusty. There are some deep pits in the top too. 

Knowing we were racing against time with shorter days and a dewpoint that suggested we probably should not be painting we decided to take the opportunity to get all the old stuff off, treat with a rust converter and slap on a coat of red oxide to give a little protection (knowing full well we would need to take it back down to steel again before we painted it but the benefit was all the layers of old paint and filler have gone so we know what we are dealing with.

The problem is that the paintwork on the old cabin top had become very scratched through use. It is no excuse I know but when a boat is used by a volunteer crew not all of them understand how easily the paint can scratch if a pole is dragged across it or stuff is put on it and she is doing maintenance duties so while we would love her to stay looking pretty it is far more important that she is used and earns her keep that sits looking pretty. 

One or two of the crew have now suggested that in the interests of practicality we finish the cabin top in raddle red/red oxide. I can see their point but there are two problems:

 One is that the edge of the cabin top is a weld that was made on a cabin that was never designed to look pretty by the BW team at Bulls Bridge! How we would manage to get a straight edge to have the side and top two different colours would be a problem. 

Two is that Python never had a red cabin top. It has been said to me that many working boats did have red oxide cabin tops but if my understanding serves me correctly they would have been full size carrying boats and the red would have been broken up with decoration of diamonds or scumbling. Does anyone ever remember any blue BW liveried boat having a red cabin top? 

I had wondered whether we could get some neoprene type mats to lay on the top when we are working with her so it protects the paintwork but if anyone has any other suggestions I am all ears 

[pete harrison]

21 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

Two is that Python never had a red cabin top. It has been said to me that many working boats did have red oxide cabin tops but if my understanding serves me correctly they would have been full size carrying boats and the red would have been broken up with decoration of diamonds or scumbling. Does anyone ever remember any blue BW liveried boat having a red cabin top? 

I had wondered whether we could get some neoprene type mats to lay on the top when we are working with her so it protects the paintwork but if anyone has any other suggestions I am all ears 

My understanding is that the standard colour for the cabin top of a 'British Waterways' southern carrying fleet motor boat is red oxide. Graining and diamonds did not appear as a part of the standard livery but a few 'British Waterways' boats used in filming / publicity did have diamonds, and of course the boatmen may have added touches like these themselves.

My preference was for red oxide primer on the cabin top as it was not so slippery when wet, and did not glare in sunlight - and I used small woven sisal mats to rest the cabin shaft on 

[cheshire~rose]

I can believe she may have had a red top when she was carrying but bear in mind the cabin she has now is a day cabin, not a traditional cabin. Would maintenance boats have had red tops? 

I think the preferences you mention and the reason for them are the same preferences we have but I would hate to go down a road where the purists start raising their eyebrows.

We have to balance the need to try and keep her practical to use as a maintenance craft by a volunteer crew with the desire to adequately reflect her heritage 

[Rob-M]

We put a few off cuts of rubber mat on the cabin top to stop scratching and try to get all volunteers to place the end of the cabin shaft on the mat. However, you still get people dropping windlasses on the paintwork.

[pete harrison]

1 minute ago, cheshire~rose said:

I can believe she may have had a red top when she was carrying but bear in mind the cabin she has now is a day cabin, not a traditional cabin. Would maintenance boats have had red tops? 

I think the preferences you mention and the reason for them are the same preferences we have but I would hate to go down a road where the purists start raising their eyebrows.

We have to balance the need to try and keep her practical to use as a maintenance craft by a volunteer crew with the desire to adequately reflect her heritage 

When boats went into the engineering fleet they generally carried their carrying fleet livery until there was a need to repaint. When I came to the canal in 1970 the cabins of these boats were simply painted blue all over the outside and off white inside (possibly white stained by smoke), and as stated in another thread the tones of blue changed slightly over the years 

[cheshire~rose]

3 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

We put a few off cuts of rubber mat on the cabin top to stop scratching and try to get all volunteers to place the end of the cabin shaft on the mat. However, you still get people dropping windlasses on the paintwork.

Thanks - I like the idea of the sisal mats that Pete mentioned too 

3 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

When boats went into the engineering fleet they generally carried their carrying fleet livery until there was a need to repaint. When I came to the canal in 1970 the cabins of these boats were simply painted blue all over the outside and off white inside (possibly white stained by smoke), and as stated in another thread the tones of blue changed slightly over the years 

So as a 1980's conversion she would only ever have been blue - thanks Pete. 

We are going with the azure this time 

Edited April 24, 2017 by cheshire~rose

[pete harrison]

2 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

Thanks - I like the idea of the sisal mats that Pete mentioned too 

So as a 1980's conversion she would only ever have been blue 

As far as I am aware yes, but it has been a maintenance boat for longer and it would have been all over blue prior to its current conversion too.

The middle Northwich motor RADIANT was sold by British Waterways Board in the early 1990's and is preserved as a plain blue maintenance boat by its owners, and is often seen at the museum at Ellesmere Port 

[Ray T]

1 hour ago, cheshire~rose said:

 

I had wondered whether we could get some neoprene type mats to lay on the top when we are working with her so it protects the paintwork but if anyone has any other suggestions I am all ears 

We have these: https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/category/midland chandlers/cabin and deck/deck hull fittings/nonslip tiles.aspx

On the cabin roof to lay windlass etc on. Cut to size so it tucks in nicely between the rail and the slide runners. Comes in various shades but the blue looks close to BW blue.

It is easily lifted to clean and store if you don't want to leave on the roof.

 

 

[cheshire~rose]

I expect they work well Ray but I fear we would lose them off the top as there is quite a big gap under the handrail on the top of Python and with so many vents and things to avoid there is not a large expanse of top to clip them together. I think we either need a mat we can roll up that we can cut out holes to slot over vents of smaller matshttps://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17883822_10154348267732341_6393746650909114381_n.jpg?oh=c85c971b53845e4a475d6986b9a5ef0f&oe=598B31EE

The configuration of the top can be seen in this photo that Tim Lewis recently shared with us

[zenataomm]

My understanding is that Red Lead Primer was used as an effective rust proofing where as Red Oxide is the lead free, Single calorie, No alcohol, Gluten Free, No Added Sugar, Tofu lookey likey they now let us play with. 

All done in the pretence that it looks the same and consequently commands the same price. 

[cheshire~rose]

Possibly! in my former life with classic cars we always used a two pack primer so I am no expert!

This is the stuff we will be using - certainly in the hold anyway:

https://www.paintman.co.uk/shop/red-oxide-primer/

[hughc]

Dacrylate in Sutton in Ashfield do a very good machinery enamel for around £35 + VAT for 5 litres. We  use it all the time. You will need to open an account but they also do a range of oxides and a good thixo. bitumen for around £65 for 20 litres.  No connection except as a satisfied customer. Regards, HughC.

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks Hughc,

yes we have used Dacrylate a few times, it is good stuff.

On this occasion we will be using Paintman products as they are very kindly supporting Python by supplying it for us.

Looking at their website I have high hopes that the quality will be superb. I will get the team who use it to report back once they have tried it.

https://www.paintman.co.uk/product-category/paint/classic-vintage-and-veteran/

We only use Bitumin above the top guard on the hold (because it stays black and is easy to touch in and keep it looking reasonable) We have used a 2-pack on hull below that. She will be slipped at the end of May, almost 2 years after it went on and it will be interesting to see how it has held up

[koukouvagia]

A couple of points

To get a clean edge between the handrail and the cabin top, I use masking tape.

I don't worry too much about wear and tear.  Whenever the roof gets a bit scruffy I use bog standard zinc phosphate primer and give it another coat.  It takes about 20 minutes.

[WotEver]

51 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

To get a clean edge between the handrail and the cabin top, I use masking tape

And you can take the side colour onto the roof to give a 1" border if you like, which will avoid trying to cut a neat line against a scraggy weld. 

[mark99]

Just done rear roof in raddle red. Took the raddle from roof top to top of the inside of handrail. No wonky weld lines that way. AND you get a colour change from roof (raddle red) to handrail top (raddle to bright red) and outside of handrail (bright red) to cabin side (scumble).

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by mark99

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, mark99 said:

Just done roof in raddle red. Took the raddle from roof top to top of the inside of handrail. No wonky lines that way.

Wow what a tongue twister! 

[DHutch]

I cant quote visualise the specific cabin corner, but if its as I am imagining from my stock mental images the only way to get a nice edge would be to come in board 4-6 inches or so and red from there, using tape to get a good edge.

However I am great believer in keeping life simple and just doing the best you can with what you have.
 - Keep it blue all over, more authentic and less edges to paint.
 - Put down a few protective bits of matt or whatever else comes to hand.
 - Tell people not to mash the pole, windlasses etc.
 - Not worry too much if it looks like you are using it.

At the end of the, a matt raddle red will also show marks if scratched with a pole/windlass.

Daniel

[mark99]

No need for masking or fancy brushwork if you do what's in my images. Slap the raddle up to the very top inside of handrail - if it spills on the top of handrail wipe clean with rag. Simples.

Edited April 26, 2017 by mark99

[roland elsdon]

We used to use tile paint on cabin tops both wooden and steel  for 25 years. We used brick red but other colours are available very hard wearing. However formulation have changed. Unfortunately we bought a job lot of international 4 years ago. Putting it on we were very impressed. It dried flat and Matt . Then I had to wipe a lister smut off the roof. While spirit softened it ( even though it was spirit based) . Two years ago get us through I dambolined the bad bits,  a year later crazed and split but a pig to get off.

now I am hand stripping and washing it all off with white spirit to get to the raddle red below, so I can repaint with damboline. 15 hrs to strip the short front cabin then engine ole and cabin. Very hard graft, but I will not sand it as most of the raddle and undercoat are good.

damboline is great hard wearing and easy to use but bright.

check ability to overcoat and clean...

[AMModels]

5 minutes ago, mark99 said:

No need for masking or fancy brushwork if you do what's in my images. Slap the raddle up to the very top inside of handrail - if it spills on the top of handrail wipe clean with rag. Simples.

The point is that Python has no handrail such as yours but raised iron work grab rails.

[mark99]

2 minutes ago, AMModels said:

The point is that Python has no handrail such as yours but raised iron work grab rails.

So where is/are weld lines?

[AMModels]

right on the cabin edge but they are quite rough according to CR, which is why people have suggested taking an inch or two of cabin top and masking tape a straight line there.

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, mark99 said:

So where is/are weld lines?

Roof to cabin sides if it's the same as many boats. 

Just now, AMModels said:

right on the cabin edge but they are quite rough according to CR, which is why people have suggested taking an inch or two of cabin top and masking tape a straight line there.

It's what I did on WotEver - it worked well. 

[mark99]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Roof to cabin sides if it's the same as many boats. 

Ah ok just looked up the image. Scratch my comment. I thought folded / rivetted but straight line or handrail like mine. Carry on. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by mark99