Valve seals or oil control rings?

[Flyboy]

3 hours ago, frahkn said:

Right, first results for you all to ponder.

Removed old air filter (it was complete). It was very dirty and oily - see below.

Left the filter off completely i.e. did not put new one on. This made no difference whatever to the smoke, everything was as described in my first post.

However I have noticed (with and without the filter) that the smoking grows less - doesn't stop but is less - after the engine has been running under load for about 2 hours.

I don't understand the oily filter. The engine is cocooned and is in the bathroom! the gearbox then extends below a double bulkhead (which hides the exhaust as it goes to the roof and hospital silencer) and the drive is under the bed in the back cabin. There is an extractor fan for the alternators but nowhere really for the air filter to pick up oil.

Tomorrow I'll replace the air filter and try to get some injector cleaner to try.

Frank.

If I remember correctly the Beta 43 has a breather pipe (1/2" bore approx. rubber pipe) that goes from the rocker box to the filter. Check this is clear.

[frahkn]

There is no breather pipe from anywhere to the air filter nor provision for one on the filter case. However a breather pipe (and blockage of same) is mentioned in the manual but I have not yet been able to identify this. As I said, access is poor and there are two bulkheads in the way. Presumably it will just be a pipe leading nowhere?

We will be in Stone this week and I'll get some injector cleaner and try that. I'll also spend some time searching for the breather pipe - any clues to where I should be looking?

Frank.

[Tony Brooks]

I have been looking at the diagrams in the Beta Greenline owners manual and it seems they all now have a breather hose running from the breather vale that is part of the rocker cover to somewhere else. I would expect that somewhere else to be the air cleaner body in most cases. However I seem to recall seeing a Beta Greenline with a box like casting at one end of the rocker cover with the breather hose fixed to that. I that case the hose just hung down beside the engine.

If you only have one breather point/hose on an engine then a blockage in that hose is more likely to cause oil leaks from gaskets and seals that force oil past the blockage (otherwise the pipe would not be blocked).

If the air filter was very oily I would suspect there is a breather connected to it and that the bores, pistons, or rings have a problem so excess back pressure is forcing oil mist into the breather. In this case the inlet tracts are probably very oily so it will take a time for the residual oil to be drawn into the engine and burnt. If the engine is still starting well from cold I would find the breather hose and fit a new one that direct the fumes into a milk carton stood beside the engine.

[frahkn]

8 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have been looking at the diagrams in the Beta Greenline owners manual and it seems they all now have a breather hose running from the breather vale that is part of the rocker cover to somewhere else. I would expect that somewhere else to be the air cleaner body in most cases. However I seem to recall seeing a Beta Greenline with a box like casting at one end of the rocker cover with the breather hose fixed to that. I that case the hose just hung down beside the engine.

If you only have one breather point/hose on an engine then a blockage in that hose is more likely to cause oil leaks from gaskets and seals that force oil past the blockage (otherwise the pipe would not be blocked).

If the air filter was very oily I would suspect there is a breather connected to it and that the bores, pistons, or rings have a problem so excess back pressure is forcing oil mist into the breather. In this case the inlet tracts are probably very oily so it will take a time for the residual oil to be drawn into the engine and burnt. If the engine is still starting well from cold I would find the breather hose and fit a new one that direct the fumes into a milk carton stood beside the engine.

Tony,

Thank you.

There is definitely no hose of any type connected to the air cleaner housing, nor is such a connection possible. The engine is starting well from cold and always has.

May I ask two questions?  1) Which end of the rocker cover will the breather valve be - the gearbox end or the water pump end

                                      2) Can you expand on your second paragraph - I am new to diesel engines and have trouble following what

                                          you are saying. 

Frank.

[Tony Brooks]

1. The owner's manual I looked at covered the whole Greenline range and the breather valve was at different positions on different engines but all had it on top of the cover. You should not be able to miss it because it had a faint resemblance to an oil filler but held down by four screws. However note that I said I think I have seen Betas with a different arrangement. I think the breather "box" was still on top of the rocker cover so would be easy to spot. Maybe its time for a photo of two.

2. All internal combustion engines need a crankcase breather, petrol or diesel. This is because combustion blow by past the rigs will try to pressurise the crankcase. IF the crankcase is pressurised to any significant extent the pressure forces out out of any weak spot on gaskets and oil seals. To overcome this a breather of some kind is fitted so that the gasses/pressure is vented out of the crankcase. On proper marine diesels and older industrial engines this breather may be internal and venting into the inlet tract so the fumes get burned in the engine. You can see upright "pipes" under some Lister rocker covers while my Bukh has a special vale amongst the rockers. At one time it was common for the breather on an OHV engine to be fitted on/in the pushrod side cover and those had a pipe or hose that just vented to atmosphere. Later designs fitted the breather to the rocker cover and to minimise pollution fed back into the engine. For simplicity and ease often into part of the air cleaner.  Some engines or modifications to engines used two breathers, one in the rocker cover and one in the side plate.

In the  case of a two breather engine I suppose one breather could be blocked and the other one could still vent the pressure but this arrangement is not so common.

If a breather on a single breather engine blocks then, as above, external oil leaks are likely.

I am wondering if you really do have a Beta engine or if its is an old one perhaps based on a different base engine. Hence the suggestion of photos.

If your engine has the breather routed into the inlet manifold as some engines do then the pressure pulses caused by moving air hitting closed valves may be enough to blow oil mist back into the air cleaner but this is conjecture. If this is happening then the problem will be excess crankcase pressure or being overfilled with oil, not a blocked breather.

[frahkn]

Thanks Tony for going to the trouble to reply so fully.

I really do have a Beta engine; it's a 2001 Beta 43, engine no. 1A0159, WOC no. K11271. I am not surprised at your doubts given the gormlessness of some of my questions, but that is one of the certainties to which I am clinging. 

I'll have another look for the breather tube and get back to the forum later. I have tried to upload photos in the past without success (I get a "folder full" or similar message) but there is a photo of my engine, and its surprising location, on Alvecoat marina's web site. It's in their tweets and is titled "thats what we call a macerator" or something like.

Is there anything useful to be deduced from the fact, confirmed again this morning, that with the engine under load, the smoke becomes much less after an hour or so running?

Frank.

[cuthound]

Here is the photo of Frahkn's engine from the Alvecote site.

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks Cuthound.

Regrettably the photo is too small and without sufficient definition/contrast to be sure but it looks to me as if there may be a rubber hose running diagonally forward from below the bracket that seems to hold the filter head/priming pump to the rocker cover. If this is the case then the bracket is possibly obscuring the breather valve. In fact it may be mounted by utilising the valve's screws. IF that feature is a rubber hose or metal pipe follow it to see where it goes.

Further inspection suggest that it may also be fixed to the rocket cover in front (towards the pulley end of the engine) of the filter bracket. The matter is complicated by the large bracket supporting what looks like a Travelpower unit to me. If the diagonal feature is a hose or pipe it is mots likely the breather.

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Thanks Cuthound.

Regrettably the photo is too small and without sufficient definition/contrast to be sure but it looks to me as if there may be a rubber hose running diagonally forward from below the bracket that seems to hold the filter head/priming pump to the rocker cover. If this is the case then the bracket is possibly obscuring the breather valve. In fact it may be mounted by utilising the valve's screws. IF that feature is a rubber hose or metal pipe follow it to see where it goes.

Further inspection suggest that it may also be fixed to the rocket cover in front (towards the pulley end of the engine) of the filter bracket. The matter is complicated by the large bracket supporting what looks like a Travelpower unit to me. If the diagonal feature is a hose or pipe it is mots likely the breather.

Yes, I struggled to make out much detail,  despite trying to enlarge the photo.

Looks like maintaining that engine could be a problem without dismantling the bathroom! 

Presumably the gearbox resides under the large silencer. Must make changing the drive plate fun.

[frahkn]

Cuthound,

Thanks for getting the photo up.

As you can see, access is a nightmare, the oil lift-pump is below the silencer and the gearbox extends into the next compartment and is under the bed in the back cabin. Imagine when the starter motor needs replacing, Nick has already suggested (not entirely in jest) that it would be quicker to cut a hole in the hull to do the work.

The position of the engine is only one of the nuttier aspects (the floor tiles are another) of what is otherwise a really nice boat (IMHO).

Tony,

The 'Travelpower' is in fact the larger of the two alternators fitted as standard by Beta. I would like a travelpower but doubt it would work well in the bath! We apparently 'need' to keep the bath - even though we would have to moor permanently on a water point to use it.

Thank for your suggestion, as promised I will investigate the missing breather pipe further, tomorrow.

Frank.

 

[cuthound]

Frahkn,

If I recall correctly Twisted Reach is an Orion tug. If she is in can fully understand why you fell in love with her and bought her. 

I tried to approach my boat buying as logically as possible, with a list of essential features to have, and those that I would never have on a boat.

Strangely when we saw DQ, we ended up with some "essential" features missing (sprayfoam insulation for example) and some on the "never" list being present (crossbed and bow thruster).

It seems once a boat has made up its mind that it wants you to be its owner you become powerless to resist. 

[frahkn]

Cuthound,

Indeed, a 2003 Orion tug and one of, as far as I can trace, only 11 remaining Orion full length boats on the system. I tried to lean more about her but with no luck.

I approached my purchase much like your-self, in particular we wanted a 57' boat similar to our old 'owenerships' boat. I can't offer any logical explanation of why we ended up with Twisted Reach. I'd like to say that Dominic talked us into it but he didn't - he was in France when we made the offer.

Frank.

[frahkn]

I have found the breather tube, as Tony said it starts in a 'box' on the top of the rocker cover just in front of the oil filler plug.

A tube comes out of the 'box' and goes down behind the smaller alternator, towards the sump. Due to access problems I cannot see, let alone touch, the end of the tube so don't know how I might check for a blockage. I have a remote inspection camera but naturally, it's at home!

On a more cheerful note, I bought some injector cleaner and will pop it in when I start this morning. Hopefully this will solve the problem.

Pity my 500th post should be such a dull one!

Frank.

[Tony Brooks]

Just take the hose off the rocker cover end and try the engine. It may spit a little oil mist out so perhaps lay a rag under the pipe the hose fitted over. That will tell you if its a breather problem, as would just blowing down the pipe (for goodness sake do not suck, the condensate tastes horrible). I fully expect the other end of the pipe is just hanging down beside the engine. If the pipe is blocked you can fit a new length and route it however you want but keep it away from the belts. If you do this I would stick a plastic milk carton in the engine tray and lead the hose into that so any oil mist stays in the carton and not make the tray messy.

It is possible that there is a gauze oil trap/flame arrestor in the rocker cover. If so these can block so also blow back into the engine with the oil filler cap off. In fact running with the filler cap off will tell you if the smoke is caused by a blocked breather but oil may be ejected from the hole. When running with the filler cap off when hot there will be a little pulsing gas coming out of the filler but if there are lots of visible fumes or lots of gasses then the problem is more likely to be a worn engine. However it takes some experience to decide if the amount of gas is normal or not.

[bizzard]

I'd use the quick clean method as I described in an earlier post, and pour whats left of the cleaner into the tank. That rubber breather tube may not be fully impervious to oil and may have gone pappy inside, collapsed and blocking it.  But hey, how pleasant it must be to be able to sit on the throne whilst working on the engine. Very comforting especially in the event of you suddenly being taken short.

[frahkn]

3 hours ago, bizzard said:

 But hey, how pleasant it must be to be able to sit on the throne whilst working on the engine. Very comforting especially in the event of you suddenly being taken short.

If I don't get this sorted and end up with Alvecoat stripping the engine down this winter, I know when I'll need the throne.

I'll need to be sitting there when Lawrence hands me the bill!

But still, I might fix it yet with help from the forum. I work slowly, that must be why I have only managed 500 posts in ten years.

Frank.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, frahkn said:

If I don't get this sorted and end up with Alvecoat stripping the engine down this winter, I know when I'll need the throne.

I'll need to be sitting there when Lawrence hands me the bill!

But still, I might fix it yet with help from the forum. I work slowly, that must be why I have only managed 500 posts in ten years.

Frank.

If its starting well and easily from cold and burning no oil it is less likely to be a worn engine and more likely to be an injector fault. take care not to spend money to solve a comparatively minor irritation - with a bit of exhaust smoke it will just look as if you have a vintage lump installed.

 

[frahkn]

OK, last word on this before you all get bored with the issue (if it's not already too late)!

The injector cleaner was added to the tank (Bizzard's method probably would have been better but I added it to the tank). The result remains uncertain - the smoke is less but still present - also, it continues to get less after an hour or so under load. My wife maintains that, even at constant revs, the smoke production isn't continuous but comes in bursts of ten seconds or so with similar length gaps.

I'm inclined to take Tony's advice and wait for it to go away or get worse but stop worrying in the meantime.

Thanks to everyone who tried to help.

Frank.

[frahkn]

Sorry, I'm back.

I will do a separate topic about this later today but want to mention it here as it was covered in passing earlier.

I have discovered the cause of the oil in my air filter.

The engine exhaust is linked to the hospital silencer by a flexible tube about 18" long. This is covered on the outside with a plaited steel mesh (not unlike some type of tap tails and other flexible plumbing fittings but larger obviously).

This has developed a leak and is allowing some oily vapour/material to escape. The hole is only a few inches from the air filter intake - my brand new air filter is already a bit dirty as a result.

Surely this must have some impact on my smoke problem?

Frank.

 

[cuthound]

There shouldn't be oil in the exhaust. Sounds like you may have worn or broken piston rings, or possibly bore wear or the seals on the valve stems may have become brittle.

Yes, oil in the exhaust will result in smoke.

Is it possible for a boatyard to undertake a compression test on your engine?

That should identify the cause of the oil in the engine. Hopefully it will be the valve stem seals.

Edited May 5, 2017 by cuthound
Brain fart

[Tony Brooks]

It will cover the filter in soot (carbon) and yes if you restrict the air into an engine you are likely to get smoke - more soot. I would only consider the black oily if it had a gloss to to it, if its mat then I suspect just carbon.

[frahkn]

3 hours ago, cuthound said:

There shouldn't be oil in the exhaust. Sounds like you may have worn or broken piston rings, or possibly bore wear or the seals on the valve stems may have become brittle.

Yes, oil in the exhaust will result in smoke.

Is it possible for a boatyard to undertake a compression test on your engine?

That should identify the cause of the oil in the engine. Hopefully it will be the valve stem seals.

Alvecoat diagnosed valve stem seals or piston rings and are willing/eager to look at the engine this winter.

Because of the access issue, I imagine they will argue (not unreasonably) that they should take it down to the piston rings while they are at it, to avoid repeating whatever bulkhead dismantling is involved. I think this is, in principle, sensible but - given the likely cost - have a great urge to avoid or at least delay it.

On the other hand, it won't get cheaper so perhaps it's best done this winter.

Frank.

[frahkn]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

It will cover the filter in soot (carbon) and yes if you restrict the air into an engine you are likely to get smoke - more soot. I would only consider the black oily if it had a gloss to to it, if its mat then I suspect just carbon.

The, admittedly small, blow out is onto a wooden partition about 3 inches from the pipe. Unfortunately the deposit does look a bit glossy (but it is not running down the vertical surface). On other hand, when wiped up it is much blacker than merely oil and clearly has a lot of carbon in it.

Due to inaccessibility, the leak may have been going on undiscovered for some considerable time.

Frank.

[cuthound]

Any competent repair agent should undertake a compression test to diagnose the problem first.

If compression on one or more cylinders is low, then they should dribble a little oil into the affected cylinders via the injector holes (having removed the injectors of facilitate the compression test) and redo the compression test. If the compression rises, the fault will be piston rings or bores, if it doesn't, then it will be the valve stem seals.

Edited May 5, 2017 by cuthound
Spillung

[jddevel]

A diesel engine compression tester is not that expensive to buy or you may even be able to hire one. They are simple enough to use and may help a little with self diagnosis.