Is a boat a dwelling under UK law? Proven? Help please

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

The government guidelines say that "a boat and its mooring" constitute a dwelling when the boat is the sole or main residence of the owner, and that in such cases the boat should allocated a council tax band. So, to me that answers the question asked in the thread's title. That said, there is a grey area: what if the boat has no permanent mooring?

 

14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Mew & Anor v Tristmire Ltd [2012] WLR 852     Case summary

Mew & Anor v Tristmire [2012] 1 WLR 852 Court of Appeal

The Court of Appeal were required to determine whether two houseboats ‘Emily’ and ‘Watershed’ formed part of the realty and thus constituted a dwelling house or whether they were chattels. If they formed part of the realty the defendants, who owned and resided on the boats would be  protected from eviction under the Housing Act 1988. Both Emily and Watershed were connected to the mains services providing water, electricity and gas. They were originally built to be landing crafts, but were never used as such and converted into house boats after the war. They were once capable of floating, but now could only be removed by a crane with an extensive supporting cradle. Even this would be likely to result in damage or destruction of the boats due to the present condition of the boats. They rested on wooden panels which are supported by wooden piles driven into the bed of the Bembridge harbour on the Isle of Wight.

Held:

The house boats did not form part of the realty and remained chattels. Whilst the degree of annexation was not dissimilar to that in Elitestone v Morris, in examining the object of annexation the court was to have regard to the circumstances prevailing when the boats first came to the site. At this time the boats were easily movable and not intended to be permanent structures. The tenancies of the plots did not extend to the boats.

I can but do as the OP requested and post 'precedence'. Where if the boat is 'easily movable' and is not intended to be a permanent structure then it remains a chattel.

[Athy]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I can but do as the OP requested and post 'precedence'. Where if the boat is 'easily movable' and is not intended to be a permanent structure then it remains a chattel.

...whereas my source was the goverment's own guidelines and regulations on council tax - proof enough that they need to seek the services of a lawyer!

[magictime]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I can but do as the OP requested and post 'precedence'. Where if the boat is 'easily movable' and is not intended to be a permanent structure then it remains a chattel.

Boats remain chattels regardless, don't they? But surely that only means they can never be properties, not that they can never be dwellings.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Athy said:

...whereas my source was the goverment's own guidelines and regulations on council tax - proof enough that they need to seek the services of a lawyer!

Indeed - you quote the VOA 'rules', then of course their are 'planning' regulations (with different requirements), then there are several different definitions of 'houseboat'.

 

Yes - they need the services of a 'specialist' as I suggested right at he start of this thread.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The Court of Appeal were required to determine whether two houseboats ‘Emily’ and ‘Watershed’ formed part of the realty and thus constituted a dwelling house or whether they were chattels

Does his answer the question ?

"Boats remain chattels regardless, don't they? But surely that only means they can never be properties, not that they can never be dwellings."

Edited April 14, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Graham Davis]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

...whereas my source was the goverment's own guidelines and regulations on council tax - proof enough that they need to seek the services of a lawyer!

Can you please provide a link to these Guidelines?

[churchward]

18 hours ago, Paul and Mal said:

Hello All Is there a legally experienced brain out there who can help? On behalf of a third party, I am looking for some legal help. Question. Can a boat be classed as a dwelling under English law? Is there case precedence? Someone has died, the partner, who has lived aboard since the boat was built about twelve years ago has no other home. Has the partner the same right of occupancy as if the home had been "Real estate" e.g. A house or flat. One lawyer suggests not, but in all honesty, she did not seem to be able to grasp the idea of living on a barge as a concept. Although an interesting discussion could be had, I would prefer replies of fact rather conjecture. Hope someone can help Paul

I can't help with the legalities but I must admit I thought a boat could both be a chattel and a dwelling (hence able to pay council tax if a residential mooring).

I truly hope that you resolve the issue satisfactorily for the person involved there must be few more stressing situations in terms of grieving for a lost partner and the fear of loosing ones home.  You would think human kindness and care would prevail regardless of any literal legal standing but sadly not always the case.

A lesson for all of us postponing writing or updating a will, get it done have peace of mind that your wishes and instructions will be implemented. When my father moved in with us we changed our wills so that he has the right to stay in the house until his death or he chooses not to if we were both to die at once. Hopefully unlikely but it would be horrible to think he would be forced to be homeless at his age.

[WotEver]

Interesting reading here: http://app.voa.gov.uk/corporate/publications/Manuals/RatingManual/RatingManualVolume5/sect670/b-rat-man-vol5-s670.html

 

[WotEver]

57 minutes ago, churchward said:

I thought a boat could both be a chattel and a dwelling (hence able to pay council tax if a residential mooring).

Me too, but reading the link I posted above suggests that 'the mooring' is subject to tax 'if it has a boat on it' which is lived in. So at no point does the boat become liable for tax, just the mooring. Or so it seems to read to me. 

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Me too, but reading the link I posted above suggests that 'the mooring' is subject to tax 'if it has a boat on it' which is lived in. So at no point does the boat become liable for tax, just the mooring. Or so it seems to read to me. 

The VOA manual is extremely definitive on this matter - and - as an aide-memoir it offers the following examples :

 

PN 7: Appendix D : Is boat part of the dwelling?

The following examples illustrate circumstances where boats used wholly as living accommodation may or may not be regarded as part of the hereditament together with the mooring, and therefore to be included in the Council Tax banding valuation.

Example 1

A couple lives in a purpose-built houseboat comprising a timber-clad building on a pontoon. They pay rent for a mooring on the river bank with its own anchor points, access way, water supply and drainage connections. The houseboat has been moored in that location for several years, although it is moved every 2 or 3 years to carry out maintenance to the pontoon.

The mooring is a separate hereditament because it is occupied exclusively by one boat for a period of more than 12 months. The mooring is also domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) because it is occupied by a boat which is someone's sole or main residence. Although a chattel, the houseboat can be regarded as enjoyed with the land with such permanence as to enhance its value, and should be included in the valuation for banding purposes.

Example 2

A family lives in a barge which has been converted to provide living accommodation. They pay rent to the riparian (‘of river bank’) owner for a mooring on the river bank with its own water supply and sewage connection. During the year, the barge moves away at weekends and holidays of more than 2-4 weeks duration leaving the mooring vacant until its return.

The mooring is a separate hereditament because it is used exclusively by one boat during the year. When the barge is present, the mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) because it is occupied by a boat which is someone's sole or main residence. When the barge is absent, the mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(5) because it appears when next in use the mooring will be domestic. However, the barge is insufficiently permanent to be regarded as part of the hereditament, and the mooring only should be valued to determine the appropriate band.

Example 3

A man lives on a motor cruiser with living accommodation on board. He rents a berth in a marina comprising a finger pontoon at right angles to the bank with water supply and sewage pump-out. The marina operator controls access to the site and reserves a continual right to move the boat from its mooring. When the boat is absent, as it frequently is for weekends and holidays, and even though the boat owner pays rent continuously in order to reserve a berth at the site, the marina operator allows other boats to use the mooring.

Although the mooring is virtually in permanent use and affords self-containment to any boat with living accommodation, the cruiser owner's occupation of the mooring is non-exclusive and insufficiently permanent for him to be liable for Council Tax. The marina operator is in paramount occupation of the mooring for the purposes of his business of running a marina. If the other boats which use the mooring are also someone's sole or main residence, only the mooring would be domestic property and subject to banding. The boat itself would not be included in the valuation.

If the other boats which use the mooring are not someone's sole or main residence or there is no way of knowing what their use would be, the mooring will be non-domestic. If there are two or more such moorings in the marina, all the moorings and land under the control of the marina operator should be treated as one hereditament by virtue of the Multiple Moorings Regulations. The marina operator will be in permanent occupation.

Example 4

A couple live on a narrow boat as their sole or main residence. They pay a mooring fee to the British Waterways Board for one of several moorings along the towing path and a licence fee to be on the canal. They share a water tap with the other boats, but the nearest sewage disposal facility is some distance away. Periodically, they move the boat to dispose of sewage; and every few years the boat is taken into dry dock for essential maintenance. British Waterways Board reserves a continual right to allocate a different mooring, for example, in order to accommodate boats of different length at the site, but in practice the boat returns to the same mooring, which is not used by other boats in its absence It has a postal address and post is delivered direct to the boat.

The mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) and sufficiently defined as to form a separate hereditament. The boat is moored with a sufficient degree of permanence as to be enjoyed with the mooring and therefore should be regarded as part of the hereditament and be included in the valuation for banding purposes.

If however the separate moorings along the canal bank are not easily identified, either in the agreement with BWB or on the ground, and can vary each time a boat is moored, as the boat always returns to a different position, then the hereditament will comprise of the whole length of moorings along that part of the canal, and the rateable occupier will be the BWB. The boat will not form part of the hereditament because it lacks sufficient permanence to be enjoyed with the land.

If the moorings are solely occupied by boats which are the sole or residence of an individual, then there will be a single Council Tax banding of all the moorings. However, should pleasure boats also use the moorings, the moorings should be treated as a composite hereditament. In many cases a common sense view will need to be taken of the extent of the domestic and non-domestic parts, and regulation 7(1) of the Council Tax (Situation and Valuation of Dwellings) Regulations 1992 requires a band to be ascribed which reflects the value which would reasonably attributed to the domestic use. The distribution between domestic and non domestic use will therefore reflect how the market would view the use of the hereditament, if it were made available with vacant possession. The actual use of the moorings at compilation date, or a notional distribution based on the prevailing pattern of use along moorings in that locality can be adopted.

Where a single composite hereditament is appropriate, the non domestic part in this example will be included in the Central List assessment for BWB, and a single Council Tax band will be entered in the valuation list for the residential moorings.

 

[Bod]

20 hours ago, Paul and Mal said:

Hello All Is there a legally experienced brain out there who can help? On behalf of a third party, I am looking for some legal help. Question. Can a boat be classed as a dwelling under English law? Is there case precedence? Someone has died, the partner, who has lived aboard since the boat was built about twelve years ago has no other home. Has the partner the same right of occupancy as if the home had been "Real estate" e.g. A house or flat. One lawyer suggests not, but in all honesty, she did not seem to be able to grasp the idea of living on a barge as a concept. Although an interesting discussion could be had, I would prefer replies of fact rather conjecture. Hope someone can help Paul

http://www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2011/12/19/death-and-the-unmarried-couple-what-happens-to-the-house/

Scroll down to  "So what are her options"

Inheritance Provision for Family and Dependents Act 1975

May well have the answer.  The partner makes a claim for financial provision.

 

Bod

[SimonRNABO]

Please please please go and get (further) professional legal advice, especially if as implied in the OP, someone may be facing homelessness.

Individual circumstances, on a variety of points, can turn it either way and talking about it out of context is really unhelpful and potentially very misleading!

For example 'Partner' is ambiguous: (not asking you to declare anyone's circumstances here) but for example: In most instances you have significant rights over the 'estate' of the person who has passed if you and they were married or in a civil partnership; but in the absence of that you are too often no more than a lodger/or guest in the eyes of the law. The point in this hypothetical example being you could get all the way to getting establishing the boat is a 'dwelling' but then realise that there are no rights in favour of the unmarried partner and under the estate the boat passes to a blood relative...

[mayalld]

The discussion has focused on whether or not the boat is a dwelling. 

That question is predicated on an assumption (and a false assumption) that if a boat is a dwelling by any legal definition it is a dwelling for all legal purposes. 

A boat is, for the purposes of inheritance and the law of property a chattel  

For taxation purposes it may be s dwelling.

So, broadly speaking, it is unlikely that the partner would have a claim.

Not what you want to hear sorry, and I do wish you luck in getting a judgement that runs counter to precedent 

 

 

 

 

[WotEver]

Well, there have been 24 posts since the OP last logged in to look, so I suspect we're wasting our time trying to help anyway. 

[Chewbacka]

or hopefully the op has realised that no one on here has enough legal knowledge to give a definitive answer and this is clearly a complex question and so is going to seek legal advice next week.

[Paul and Mal]

Hi Wotever and Chewbacka

I am the OP, and am dealing with the death of two very good friends, my brother and my mother in law,  all in the space of eight weeks.

WIFI is spasmodic at best on our mooring.

I am not being disrespectful of the effort that posters have gone too by not replying.

Indeed I thank everyone who has taken the time and effort to respond.  I will sift though all replies, and see if there is anything of use (after cross reference).

Legal advice is being sought, however as said, a case my have cropped up in "Water Land" that a solicitor may not know about.  Hence my OP.

Thank you again to everyone who has responded.

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

[WotEver]

I wish you all the best at this difficult time Paul. 

[MtB]

On 17/04/2017 at 10:17, Paul and Mal said:

Hi Wotever and Chewbacka

I am the OP, and am dealing with the death of two very good friends, my brother and my mother in law,  all in the space of eight weeks.

WIFI is spasmodic at best on our mooring.

I am not being disrespectful of the effort that posters have gone too by not replying.

Indeed I thank everyone who has taken the time and effort to respond.  I will sift though all replies, and see if there is anything of use (after cross reference).

Legal advice is being sought, however as said, a case my have cropped up in "Water Land" that a solicitor may not know about.  Hence my OP.

Thank you again to everyone who has responded.

Paul

 

Thank you for posting again, and my condolences for the passing of your two friends.

Despite the lack of qualified opinion on here, researching a subject pays massive dividends when instructing a solicitor in my personal experience. Solicitors generally prefer being instructed by someone with a basic grasp of the subject in hand and the issues consequently flowing, than by a total novice. 

Helps one see when the solicitor is 'coasting' too, rather than doing their research

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thank you for posting again, and my condolences for the passing of your two friends.

Despite the lack of qualified opinion on here, researching a subject pays massive dividends when instructing a solicitor in my personal experience. Solicitors generally prefer being instructed by someone with a basic grasp of the subject in hand and the issues consequently flowing, than by a total novice. 

Helps one see when the solicitor is 'coasting' too, rather than doing their research

or stringing things along to keep his hourly fees coming in

[Chewbacka]

4 hours ago, Paul and Mal said:

Hi Wotever and Chewbacka

I am the OP, and am dealing with the death of two very good friends, my brother and my mother in law,  all in the space of eight weeks.

WIFI is spasmodic at best on our mooring.

I am not being disrespectful of the effort that posters have gone too by not replying.

Indeed I thank everyone who has taken the time and effort to respond.  I will sift though all replies, and see if there is anything of use (after cross reference).

Legal advice is being sought, however as said, a case my have cropped up in "Water Land" that a solicitor may not know about.  Hence my OP.

Thank you again to everyone who has responded.

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for your loss.  I did my father's probate a couple of years ago, it is not technically difficult but rather sad as you pull together the financial aspects of his life so as to consolidate his estate.  I hope you get everything resolved as best you can.