Inverter continuously charging

[Ratty69]

So I've found and switched off the immersion (there was no timer switch and it wasn't labelled). Shore bollard says 5(45) amp.

tocker switch is set to power saver auto and the "battery charger (shore power on)" light is on.

the inverter alternates between fast charge or the fast charge light just blinks and my batteries are all fully charged showing 14.3 volts. 

All that's running on the boat currently is fridge, freezer. Tv on stand by and 1 socket charging my mobile.

if the batteries are fully charged then why does it keep charging?

[BruceinSanity]

6 minutes ago, Ratty69 said:

So I've found and switched off the immersion (there was no timer switch and it wasn't labelled). Shore bollard says 5(45) amp.

tocker switch is set to power saver auto and the "battery charger (shore power on)" light is on.

the inverter alternates between fast charge or the fast charge light just blinks and my batteries are all fully charged showing 14.3 volts. 

All that's running on the boat currently is fridge, freezer. Tv on stand by and 1 socket charging my mobile.

if the batteries are fully charged then why does it keep charging?

14.3 volts is not necessarily or even probably fully charged. You can only tell if they are fully charged by looking at the current which will be below 1% of battery capacity for a full charge. So if you have, say, 600 Ah of battery capacity, you should look to get this "tail current" below 6 amps or less.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Ratty69 said:

All that's running on the boat currently is fridge, freezer. Tv on stand by and 1 socket charging my mobile.

if the batteries are fully charged then why does it keep charging?

If you have a bucket with a hole in it, then as the water is running out of it you need to keep the tap running to keep the bucket full.

(IF) Your batteries are indeed full, the Fridge, Freezer etc etc is taking some of its electricity (like the hole in the bucket), so to replace it you need to keep the battery charger (the 'tap) running.

 

An alternative way to view it is that as the batteries are full, the battery charger is now powering the inverter to provide the power to your fridge, freezer etc, to save it taking power form the batteries.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Robbo]

5amps is around 1200watt so is pretty dismal (a photo of the bollard mcb will confirm your readings).   Your charger could easily use this alone when charging the batteries, if it now doesn't trip with the immersion off it looks like we have found the issue, but if this was your source of hot water we should come up with a workable solution.   

[Ratty69]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you have a bucket with a hole in it, then as the water is running out of it you need to keep the tap running to keep the bucket full.

(IF) Your batteries are indeed full, the Fridge, Freezer etc etc is taking some of its electricity (like the hole in the bucket), so to replace it you need to keep the battery charger (the 'tap) running.

Nice analogy - I understand the premise so, what marker on the bucket should the water be sitting at to show me the batteries are fully charged? ;-)

[Robbo]

15 minutes ago, Ratty69 said:

Nice analogy - I understand the premise so, what marker on the bucket should the water be sitting at to show me the batteries are fully charged? ;-)

The charger will kick into float mode, it may come out of it every now and again, but it will stay/should their for 99% of the time.   When it gets to float, you may be able to turn the immersion on without it tripping.  If it trips turn the immersion off!   Do you know how to find the wattage of the immersion heater?  If your not comfortable with electrics, it may be better to get a neighbour to confirm it.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Robbo

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Ratty69 said:

Nice analogy - I understand the premise so, what marker on the bucket should the water be sitting at to show me the batteries are fully charged? ;-)

Turn off everything (Fridge, freezer, phone, TV, lights - EVERYTHING)

Leave the battery charger switched on and 'charging the battery'

With your test meter, check the current (not voltage) going from the charger to the battery.

When the batteries are 'full' this current should be 1%-2% of the capacity of the batteries (so if you have 4x 110ah batteries, this reading should be around 8 amps - but 6 would be better).

Repeat the current check 45-60 minutes later, if the current is the same then they are fully charged.

 

If - on the 1st check the reading is (say) 15 amps, then the batteries are still charging.

Check an hour later - (say) the reading is now 12 amps

Repeat, repeat, repeat until you get down to 1%-2% of battery capacity,

[Ratty69]

Ok so first check shows 15amp with everything off so they are still charging 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Ratty69 said:

Ok so first check shows 15amp with everything off so they are still charging 

How / what are you using to measure the charging current ?

[Robbo]

Im afraid to say that first person you got out is an idiot to recommend new batteries, don't use them again.  This was a easy to spot issue if the shore power is limited to 5amps and should have been diagnosed within minutes.

[Ratty69]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

How / what are you using to measure the charging current ?

Got a neighbour to check with his clamp amp multi meter

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Ratty69 said:

Got a neighbour to check with his clamp amp multi meter

Perfect - was that reading with EVERYTHING (12v and 240v, inverter etc) all TURNED OFF ?

[dor]

7 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Im afraid to say that first person you got out is an idiot to recommend new batteries, don't use them again.  This was a easy to spot issue if the shore power is limited to 5amps and should have been diagnosed within minutes.

Someone I knew had a problem with his batteries flattening very quickly, even though they were new batteries.  Had a "electrician" come and look who spent an hour and still couldn't find the problem.    I had a look and found an unlabelled switch which - yes, went to the immersion heater.   Another boat I looked at had the inverter feeding the charger which was charging the batteries to feed the inverter...

Both things not obvious to a new boater.

[Ratty69]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

Perfect - was that reading with EVERYTHING (12v and 240v, inverter etc) all TURNED OFF ?

Yes everything 

Just now, dor said:

Someone I knew had a problem with his batteries flattening very quickly, even though they were new batteries.  Had a "electrician" come and look who spent an hour and still couldn't find the problem.    I had a look and found an unlabelled switch which - yes, went to the immersion heater.   Another boat I looked at had the inverter feeding the charger which was charging the batteries to feed the inverter...

Both things not obvious to a new boater.

TBH they wouldn't be obvious to me as a new or old boater .

Electrics aren't my thing (in case you hadn't guessed)

[nicknorman]

So if the batteries are taking 15A still, they're either not charged yet, or faulty. Since they are new they are unlikely to be faulty. When you get your own clamp meter (and you've seen they are quite easy to use) you can put it on the various battery interconnect leads to check that the current going into each battery is roughly the same. A faulty battery would show up as being the one taking all the current when the others are fully charged and taking virtually no current. As I said earlier, such a battery would likely be warmer than the others and fizzing more noisily. However hopefully, being new, they are all fine.

[Robbo]

13 minutes ago, dor said:

Someone I knew had a problem with his batteries flattening very quickly, even though they were new batteries.  Had a "electrician" come and look who spent an hour and still couldn't find the problem.    I had a look and found an unlabelled switch which - yes, went to the immersion heater.   Another boat I looked at had the inverter feeding the charger which was charging the batteries to feed the inverter...

Both things not obvious to a new boater.

Aye for new boater it's not easy to diagnose.   For a boat electrician it should be top of the list to check on what the OP described as the symptoms of what was happening.

[OldGoat]

The Sterling procombi range is an awesome beast and built like a brick (very heavy) and almost unburstable - so I'm told. You can download the instruction manual from here but you'll have to select the 'procombi q/s' manual from the page link 

https://sterling-power.com/products/pro-combi-q-quasi-sine-wave

There's a switch on the control panel - which on my model (not installed yet) implies that you can set it to charge only - but you panel is older (?) and implies it's completely off, so I'm not being  very helpful...

The indicator lights in you picture indicate that it was on fast charge, which - given that it is always on, says to me that the batteries were 'shot' - so replacing them was the best answer.

The unit is likely - especially if one of the larger types - is likely to draw a large amount of power when first switched on - and that could cause the bollard unit to trip. However, as you suggest 'small persons' have been fiddling with washing machines (etc) then the combined load could go over your 16 amp limit. Alternatively if there is a poor earth connection that will trip the supply as well (been there, done it!). The Sterling must be earthed separately as well - see instructions. The largest Sterling unit can draw 1Kw of energy when charging adding significantly to whatever power you're using at the same time!

So, there are a number of things to check before deciding who is the culprit. Looking at your photos it appears that the installation has been done 'properly' - so 'finger trouble' is the likely culprit..

 

 

[Bazza954]

4 hours ago, OldGoat said:

The Sterling procombi range is an awesome beast and built like a brick

The problem with that is, it also has a brain which resembles said brick.

I have a sterling pro combi s 2500w,

you can be connected to a shore line for weeks and sterling keeps batteries on float, one glitch/cutout in the power supply causes the unit to go straight back to boost charge when the shore power comes back on, even though batteries were fully charged 100% on SG.

The  same applies when returning from cruising, sterling goes straight to boost when connected to shore line.

Its not that intelligent.

The OP probably heard the inverter while it was on float charge (quiet) soon as he disconnects shore power and reconnects it will go straight into boost, hence he said it was loud.

Bazza

 

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, Bazza954 said:

 he ... he ...

Bazza

 

She ... she ...

 

But anyway I think pretty much every charger goes to bulk / fast charge or whatever when first turned on, regardless of the SoC of the batteries. If the batteries are fully charged, they go back to float fairly quickly.

[OldGoat]

5 amp power is pretty measly, but even so I recall seeing that level in some ancient marinas. The same goes for a six amp supply. More common nowadays is either 16 amps or if very posh 32amps - and I guess with so many widebeams becoming common (!sic) that latter will be the new norm. Wit a 5 amp supply you can't do much....

Just about run the charger! Hair shirts are the order of that day.

 

[Bazza954]

On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 17:21, nicknorman said:

She ... she ...

 

But anyway I think pretty much every charger goes to bulk / fast charge or whatever when first turned on, regardless of the SoC of the batteries. If the batteries are fully charged, they go back to float fairly quickly.

 

Oops, missed the OP was a she, apologies. 

Not with the sterling pile of crap !!!!!

It's a battery boiler.

What inverter do you have Nick ?

 

bazza

 

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Bazza954

[Richard10002]

On 12/04/2017 at 09:25, nicknorman said:

Morning! So yes, you'd expect the "fast charge" light to go out and the "float charge" light to come on, but it might take many hours for that to happen. Maximum 12 hours, according to the spec. It decides when to go into float based on the current it is being asked to supply. So if just to the batteries, then it will go to float once the batteries are fully charged and stop taking significant current. However if boat 12v services are on (lights, 12v fridge etc) the Combi can't distinguish between current going to the batteries and current going to those services, so the switch to float will be delayed. This isn't a problem. I note you have the Combi set to battery type 4 which is 14.4v, and normal batteries can happily spend 12 hours or more at that voltage without any issue.

.............

Most inverters have a switch to make them be a charger only, ie not go into inverting mode, but I have a feeling that yours doesn't (someone who has one might confirm?) so you are at risk of flattening the batteries if the shore power trips and you don't notice. Where do you have the red rocker switch on the remote control panel at the moment?

I have the Sterling 2500W Pro Combi S Inverter Charger.

When turned on it always starts on "Fast Charge", (Bulk), with the fast charge light on solid. When the voltage rises to the pre set Limit, it goes into Absorbtion Mode, and the fast charge light starts flashing.

It then stays in Absorbtion mode, with the light flashing, for 10 times the amount of time it was in Bulk Mode, or 1 hour, whichever is the longest - I think it has a max of 4 hours in absorbtion mode - then it goes into float mode. The Fast Charge light goes out and the green float light comes on.

It's all timer based and, whilst it must measure volts to establish max voltage and float voltage, it doesnt appear to be measuring amps.

 

My older model does not have a "charger only" facility so, if shore power fails, it reverts to inverter mode, and depletes the batteries. I am off grid, so never on shore power. However, if I ever used shore power, I have a separate 25A battery charger such that, if shore power fails, the system fails safe.

I emailed Sterling about this and he said they were planning a modification to include a charger only facility, but I was ***t out of luck with mine.

 

[BruceinSanity]

Other combis like the Mastervolt go back into absorption mode from time to time, every ten days in the case of my MV, to ensure the batteries stay fully charged. Does seem like the Sterling is pretty basic, you get what you pay for, I guess.

[by'eck]

9 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

I have the Sterling 2500W Pro Combi S Inverter Charger.

When turned on it always starts on "Fast Charge", (Bulk), with the fast charge light on solid. When the voltage rises to the pre set Limit, it goes into Absorbtion Mode, and the fast charge light starts flashing.

It then stays in Absorbtion mode, with the light flashing, for 10 times the amount of time it was in Bulk Mode, or 1 hour, whichever is the longest - I think it has a max of 4 hours in absorbtion mode - then it goes into float mode. The Fast Charge light goes out and the green float light comes on.

It's all timer based and, whilst it must measure volts to establish max voltage and float voltage, it doesnt appear to be measuring amps.

 

My older model does not have a "charger only" facility so, if shore power fails, it reverts to inverter mode, and depletes the batteries. I am off grid, so never on shore power. However, if I ever used shore power, I have a separate 25A battery charger such that, if shore power fails, the system fails safe.

I emailed Sterling about this and he said they were planning a modification to include a charger only facility, but I was ***t out of luck with mine.

 

It must be at least two years ago that Sterling did introduce a Charger only facility on all their range of Combi's. I enquired if it could be retro-fitted to earlier models and the answer was yes but at a price and factory fitted.