New Boat Purchase by Newbie

[tobias metta]

Dear all, 

Hello! First post on the site and a very green member here. But thanks for taking the time to stop by and hopefully answer.

I went to look at a boat today, made in 2006 and having only had one owner, the broker said she wouldn't probably bother with a survey- she knows the hull needs blacking but not plating. She said they would recommend to lift it out of the water at another marina, who have quoted £1400 for the job of blacking the hull- the current owner is open to some negotiation and will lower the asking price accordingly subject to a quote for all the work needed- i asked if that include an engineers quote to make sure the isuzu engine is fit for service to which they were sure the answer is a yes. My naturally slightly skeptical mindset thinks this to good to be true. But if i get the boat lifted have it blacked and the engine serviced- would people still recommend it for a service? It has only had one owner and been used as a weekend cruiser,

Many thanks, 

T

 

[rusty69]

Quick thoughts. 

1.Get a survey.

 

2.sounds expensive for a lift out. Possibly still expensive if an engine service is included. 

[WotEver]

Hello and welcome

4 minutes ago, tobias metta said:

the broker said she wouldn't probably bother with a survey

Well, she would, wouldn't she?

11 years is more than enough time for the hull to have corroded badly. Not that I'm suggesting that it will have, but it certainly could have. Only a survey will tell you. 

The owner won't know what work needs doing until a surveyor tells you. 

If there is no documented proof of regular engine servicing then it definitely needs a once-over and service by someone who knows what they're looking at. 

So yes, get it surveyed, see what the surveyor says, then proceed without those rose-tinted specs that you're wearing. 

[Rickent]

1. Get a survey.

2. £1400 is very expensive for blacking.

3. Get a survey.

4. Get a survey.

[lulu fish]

I wouldn't use any broker that recommends against having a survey.  Are they BMF members? If they are, tell the BMF and they soon won't be. Which broker is this?

 

1400 is a ridiculous price for blacking unless this is a quote for grit blasting and epoxy. 

[MtB]

On 11/04/2017 at 16:04, tobias metta said:

Dear all, 

Hello! First post on the site and a very green member here. But thanks for taking the time to stop by and hopefully answer.

I went to look at a boat today, made in 2006 and having only had one owner, the broker said she wouldn't probably bother with a survey- she knows the hull needs blacking but not plating. She said they would recommend to lift it out of the water at another marina, who have quoted £1400 for the job of blacking the hull- the current owner is open to some negotiation and will lower the asking price accordingly subject to a quote for all the work needed- i asked if that include an engineers quote to make sure the isuzu engine is fit for service to which they were sure the answer is a yes. My naturally slightly skeptical mindset thinks this to good to be true. But if i get the boat lifted have it blacked and the engine serviced- would people still recommend it for a service? It has only had one owner and been used as a weekend cruiser,

Many thanks, 

T

 

 

Did you ask her how she knows this? I suspect she will waffle on about it only being 11 years old, very little use blah blah. You are right to be sceptical.

The docking cost quoted looks high but this depends on where it is. If on the Thames it is about right. If in the midlands docking and blacking would be about half that, usually. 

Whether to get a survey or not depends on how confident you are you can spot problems yourself. I'd be inclined to get a 'hull only' survey while it is out as this usually costs about £250 plus docking costs, and it is out already! Second consideration  is if it is a screaming bargain someone else will probably swoop in and buy it without a survey while you are creating delays waiting for the docking and survey. just buy it and deal with the problems, if any, once you get your hands on it.

On the other hand if 'fully priced' (as they say), I'd go full survey and get a list of faults to use to lever the price down.

[lulu fish]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Second consideration  is if it is a screaming bargain someone else will probably swoop in and buy it without a survey while you are creating delays waiting for the docking and survey.

Any half decent broker will take the boat off the market for a deposit whilst you wait for a survey and not sell it from under you after you've started arranging dry docks and surveyors.

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, lulu fish said:

I wouldn't use any broker that recommends against having a survey.  Are they BMF members? If they are, tell the BMF and they soon won't be. Which broker is this?

 

1400 is a ridiculous price for blacking unless this is a quote for grit blasting and epoxy. 

This is all true but I still would not have a survey. Personal preference only.

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

This is all true but I still would not have a survey. Personal preference only.

Care to expand on this for the benefit of the OP. May help their decision 

 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Care to expand on this for the benefit of the OP. May help their decision 

 

I am on my 8th liveaboard boat, the first I bought at the side of the coventry canal in 1989 for 10k in 20 pound notes, I had no idea what I was buying but was dead LUCKY in that it was later found to be a very sound hull. I sold it and bought my second boat a double diagnal teak built one 4 years later without survey, it was beautiful and I sold it a few months later from Gloucester docks in 24 hours for profit to another guy who didnt have a survey. My next six boats I have bought without survey and on selling them only one has ever had a survey done on it by the purchaser and it was fine. My boats have been between 10 and 65k over this period. I have gained much experience on what to look for............I am not advising anyone else to do it but some of us take risks and some of us do not in life in all differing events. I am a risk taker. My last boat ( a widebeam  ) I sold within two weeks again to a cash purchaser without survey.  Amongst these boats has been a brand new one with self fitout a secondhand Hudson bought at 4 years old from the original purchaser, 2 colecrafts a Pinder a harborough  a Swanline and a Horsley Quenet. IN MY OPINION and thats all it is life is way too short to worry and 8 surveys would have cost me about ?? After buying my present boat I was sent paperwork including a pre purchase survey some other bod from Spain had done but didnt complete the purchase, I hadnt a clue re the survey existing but it backed me up in my purchase as surveyer found it to be a good boat, I actualy found more faults in my twenty minute look at the boat than he had done during his full survey. He is a well known surveyer.

[rusty69]

18 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I actualy found more faults in my twenty minute look at the boat than he had done during his full survey. He is a well known surveyer.

When we bought our boat in 1999,I had nowhere near enough experience to ascertain a good boat from a bad one. The only thing that would prevent me in the future would be the need for a surveyor sign off for the insurance. I have bought a grp boat without survey, but that's another matter

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

When we bought our boat in 1999,I had nowhere near enough experience to ascertain a good boat from a bad one. The only thing that would prevent me in the future would be the need for a surveyor sign off for the insurance. I have bought a grp boat without survey, but that's another matter

Yes, I am not saying to anyone dont ever get a survey. I take risks, always have done and do not cry over spilt milk. I do not always get it right but thats life, I have always got it right with my boats but I have been married TWICE  and the fallout from the first marriage was far worse than mere finance.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes, I am not saying to anyone dont ever get a survey

Understood. 

[lulu fish]

55 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

This is all true but I still would not have a survey. Personal preference only.

I wouldn't get a survey either, but if a broker actually tried to suggest I not have one I would be very suspicious.

[rusty69]

Just now, lulu fish said:

I wouldn't get a survey either, but if a broker actually tried to suggest I not have one I would be very suspicious.

Would you have the boat out of the water and check yourself,or just chance it? 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, lulu fish said:

I wouldn't get a survey either, but if a broker actually tried to suggest I not have one I would be very suspicious.

Me too. I dont think they should ever consider giving such advice it seems very odd?

[lulu fish]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Would you have the boat out of the water and check yourself,or just chance it? 

I wouldn't get it out of the water.  I've had a two boats, both bought without surveys, I was confident that both had been well cared for. 

[rusty69]

17 minutes ago, lulu fish said:

I wouldn't get it out of the water.  I've had a two boats, both bought without surveys, I was confident that both had been well cared for. 

So in effect, you agree with the broker, or could survey the boat yourself in the water? 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

Care to expand on this for the benefit of the OP. May help their decision 

 

I once had a survey (18+ boats and 30+ years ago) it cost me well over £20,000 to get it 'sea-worthy' after the surveyor gave it 100% 'clean bill of health'. After employing a marine solicitor I was told that I had no hope of winning in court as the surveyors small print made sure anything they missed was not covered in the survey, so, the survey was absolutely worthless.

Having looked at a number of surveyors T&Cs there is no come back on any of them - they do not even have to have any qualification to call themselves a surveyor and can even join one of the 'Professional Bodies' without experience.

 

Survey ?

No-Thanks.

I'll save the £1000 and put it towards any faults I find.

[rusty69]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I once had a survey (18+ boats and 30+ years ago) it cost me well over £20,000 to get it 'sea-worthy' after the surveyor gave it 100% 'clean bill of health'. After employing a marine solicitor I was told that I had no hope of winning in court as the surveyors small print made sure anything they missed was not covered in the survey, so, the survey was absolutely worthless.

Having looked at a number of surveyors T&Cs there is no come back on any of them - they do not even have to have any qualification to call themselves a surveyor and can even join one of the 'Professional Bodies' without experience.

 

Survey ?

No-Thanks.

I'll save the £1000 and put it towards any faults I find.

Sorry to hear that.

Do you think the "cost"  of that survey enabled you to educate yourself to perform future surveys yourself? 

I assume it was a sea going boat you are talking about.

Does the "non professional" surveys allow you to negotiate the same kind of discount on the asking price? 

Edited April 11, 2017 by rusty69

[lulu fish]

10 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

So in effect, you agree with the broker, or could survey the boat yourself in the water? 

No, and no.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I once had a survey (18+ boats and 30+ years ago) it cost me well over £20,000 to get it 'sea-worthy' after the surveyor gave it 100% 'clean bill of health'. After employing a marine solicitor I was told that I had no hope of winning in court as the surveyors small print made sure anything they missed was not covered in the survey, so, the survey was absolutely worthless.

Having looked at a number of surveyors T&Cs there is no come back on any of them - they do not even have to have any qualification to call themselves a surveyor and can even join one of the 'Professional Bodies' without experience.

 

Survey ?

No-Thanks.

I'll save the £1000 and put it towards any faults I find.

Yet nearly everyone on this forum and in real life advocate a survey!! I have read several and they are so ambiguos they should all have been written by politicians, I have never read a survey that was straight John Bull but several that were plainly just Bull....

[Neil2]

I've come to the conclusion that there isn't enough expertise out there among "marine surveyors" to unconditionally recommend a professional survey, even to a new buyer.

My view on boat surveyors now mirrors my long held view on building surveyors and I have always regarded their opinion as worthless.  If you want to buy a particular house and you are concerned about the state of the roof, get a roofer to look at it.  If you think the windows need replacing get a joiner in and so on.

Those of us with a bit of mileage on the clock probably feel competent enough to make our own assessment anyway, but a new buyer would be better off getting a welder/fabricator to look at the hull, if that was the only/main concern.  Now some of you are going to say what about the comeback should their assessment prove to be erroneous, but as we have witnessed many times on this forum, surveyors are very clever at wriggling out of any liability post -survey so it's a poor argument for using a surveyor instead of a real expert. 

Our current boat came with three previous survey documents which didn't even agree on the size of the prop.  

[rusty69]

8 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Those of us with a bit of mileage on the clock probably feel competent enough to make our own assessment anyway, but a new buyer would be better off getting a welder/fabricator to look at the hull, if that was the only/main concern.

What about the insurance requirement on an older boat should fully comp be required? 

[Neil2]

10 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

What about the insurance requirement on an older boat should fully comp be required? 

Yes that's a good point it's a bit like having to have a so called professional surveyor give your house the once over if you need a mortgage.  Insurance companies banks and building societies don't get much respect from me either...  

Our boat is thirty next year and I have the dilemma of shelling out for a full, comprehensive survey or just insuring third party - maybe someone can help me decide.