What is a full traction battery?

[JJPHG]

 

I understand about deep-cycle batteries but often on this forum the term full traction batteries pops up.  How do you know if a battery is full traction or not/semi?  As an example the T105s are marketed as a deep-cycle battery but people refer to it as a semi-traction?  How do you know - is there something in the battery spec I can look at?

Ta

[dmr]

Full Tractions come as individual 2v cells and are very tall and thin, they look totally different to ordinary batteries.

Pedantic thought...full tractions are not actually batteries because a battery is a collection of cells and a full traction is only a single cell???????

...............Dave

 

[JJPHG]

Ah!!  Understood - Ta

[bizzard]

23 minutes ago, JJPHG said:

 

I understand about deep-cycle batteries but often on this forum the term full traction batteries pops up.  How do you know if a battery is full traction or not/semi?  As an example the T105s are marketed as a deep-cycle battery but people refer to it as a semi-traction?  How do you know - is there something in the battery spec I can look at?

Ta

Traction, As the name implies, they're used in things like electric milk floats, bread vans and forklift trucks, locomotives and the like.  They can be discharged much lower than semi and starter batteries without much detrimental loss of life. One can often observe milk floats or bread vans creeping along with driver slumped over the wheel half asleep at 1/2 mph back to the dairy or bakery after a busy morning on nearly flat batteries, to be recharged again ready for the next shift. Electric forklifts can sometimes be seen with the same symptom limping about in warehouses, again with the driver half asleep. Usually 2volt cells, very heavy with big chunks of lead in em and very expensive.

[JJPHG]

Are there any issues with inverters/chargers IF you used these?

[Robbo]

5 hours ago, JJPHG said:

Are there any issues with inverters/chargers IF you used these?

They don't like to give (or take) the amps so you should spec the battery bank capacity accordingly.  Around 20% of the total capacity is probably max.

[cuthound]

All good info in the posts above. One thing, you must be really confident that you understand battery charging and have a robust regime in place to fully charge them regularly and equalise them periodically.

If you don't,  you can wreck these very expensive batteries just as quick as cheap leisure batteries.

[Naughty Cal]

Yes it you are at all unsure of your charging regime, or are not willing to nurse and molly coddle your batteries then you are probably better off just sticking to cheap batteries and changing them as and when necessary.

Read through some of the recent battery topics on the forum and you will find the attention these batteries need and also posts from people who have managed to kill them in short periods of time.

[Chewbacka]

Though traction batteries are designed to be discharged quite a lot, if deeply discharged they also need to be recharged promptly to avoid damage.  No problem with milk floats or fork lifts as they are charged at the end of the shift, but on a boat it may not be possible, in which case, as others have said you may find they have a very short life.

[Robbo]

Do you know if your going to be on shore power during the winter?

If a liveaboard I think this is the most important question for deciding what battery type is best for your situation.

If charging  by genny then I think these are the best types (in order) if you are a heavy power consumer.

lithium

agm 

gel

traction

semi traction

 

Note it's order is best type, may not be cheapest per consumed kWh,  I'll revisit the spreadsheet I was doing to work out the charging costs...

 

If your on shore power in winter and have solar for summer use and/or cruise a lot then liesure batteries or semi Traction are fitting as you will hardly use the batteries.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Robbo

[Robbo]

Traction batteries are good long slow power drain where lithium/AGM/gel are good for short high power usage.   So knowing how you use the power is good to decide as well, not just a average daily consumption.

[peterboat]

12 years with them still on same bank in second boat, no issues as I have solar and whispergen, watering systems are needed, and although I have a large battery bank[1500ah] I still at times run them down to nothing. I wouldnt have anything else as they are so good and cheap [750ah £600] why buy anything else as long as you have the room.

I am off grid so show me a battery which would last as long for the price?

Edited March 31, 2017 by peterboat

[bizzard]

When I was a kid we had a neighbor who worked for the LEB (London Electricity board) and drove one of these battery electric vans. Sometimes he'd pop home for dinner, (it wasn't lunch in those days). He would then need to get back to his base in Ley street by 2pm, about 3 miles away. Sometimes he made it by about 4pm, sometimes he didn't.    Here depicted is the same make of electric van, but a milk float. Note:- no milk on board, it had gorn orf and had had to return to base with a load of bottles of cheese. Incidentally, I used to sit next to his daughter at school, she used to help me with my sums.

Edited March 31, 2017 by bizzard

[Robbo]

Reminds me of 

 

[bizzard]

WW2 diesel electric submarines are a jolly good study too. Many a time they lay on the sea bed with flat batteries getting depth charged, with the crew gasping for breath until they blew the ballast and rose to the surface at night to charge em up again.  They often discharged them well below 50%, naughty!

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, Robbo said:

Traction batteries are good long slow power drain where lithium/AGM/gel are good for short high power usage.   So knowing how you use the power is good to decide as well, not just a average daily consumption.

So how many amp does the motor on a milk float draw?

[Robbo]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

So how many amp does the motor on a milk float draw?

No idea, but if you need to take a lot of amps from Tractions you need a larger bank than those of the other type of batteries even if the total is the same AH's.

 Traction isn't actually the best type of batteries for milk floats n the like as the voltage drop when the batteries are low and degrades the performance.  Lithium is best as the voltage doesn't drop as much when deeply discharged.

[Robbo]

Just googled..

at 72v  peak 250amps, flat road continuous 110amps. 8.4kw motor.  Bank capacity from 200 to 600ahs

from http://www.milkfloats.org.uk

Edited March 31, 2017 by Robbo

[cuthound]

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

So how many amp does the motor on a milk float draw?

Many milk floats used Nife batteries, not lead acid.

[Robbo]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Many milk floats used Nife batteries, not lead acid.

Says 2v lead acid on the above site.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Robbo said:

Just googled..

at 72v  peak 250amps, flat road continuous 110amps. 8.4kw motor.  Bank capacity from 200 to 600ahs

from http://www.milkfloats.org.uk

Well I never expected that information to be there. Ta so 110 amps is a lot from a 200ah bank. its quite a bit from a 600ah bank

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

Many milk floats used Nife batteries, not lead acid.

All our fofklifts were lead acid, but I wasn't interested in batteries in those days. 1972 Birds Eye Foods

[Chewbacka]

I thought they the last factory making NiFe cells packed up years ago and that a new factory only recently started making them again.  I shall ask Mr Google.........

[peterboat]

I thought they were called traction batteries because thats what they were designed and used for........................

[Robbo]

19 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I thought they were called traction batteries because thats what they were designed and used for........................

To be honest a Traction battery isn't a "type" like lead-acid as they can be AGM, lithium, Etc.  But I commonly regard the type "Traction" as been the 2v tubular lead acid kind, when really that is one type of traction battery.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Robbo

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Robbo said:

To be honest a Traction battery isn't a "type" like lead-acid as they can be AGM, lithium, Etc.  But I commonly regard the type "Traction" as been the 2v tubular lead acid kind, when really that is one type of traction battery.

I know exactly what they are I trained as a battery mechanic in the ARMY, its a battery with an awful lot more lead in it than normal batteries which is why they are heavy and if looked after last in my case over 12 years.

There is in Hellerby a place that sells them they dont sell many of the other types for use in forklifts etc why is that? could it be that lead acid tractions are better? cheaper? longer lasting? can be maintained which the other types cant.

I am building a full electric boat it will have lead acid tractions because they arnt expensive and are easy to look after and charge up