Inverter - Lidl £22.99

[alan_fincher]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

It may well be but its how much leccy it uses. For instance your small 12v tv today probably pulls 3 amps ISH from your batteries whereas a poor mains inverter set up may well double that figure. A good inverter will be great as they only draw a small amount to power themselves the problem is without buying it and trying its hard to be sure either way.

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just to expand on what others have said

 

An inverter takes power from the batteries, just to power itself, it then takes more power to change the12v to 240v.

A cheap inverter takes lots of power just to run, more expensive, quality, inverter uses very little power just to run.

 

I would disagree with both the above comments, which to my view in no way supports my own evidence, including from readings I have taken.

Most 300 Watt (ish) cheap modified sine wave inverters will turn out to be at least about 90% efficient, and most will draw only a very small standby current when not actually powering anything.

Bigger, more expensive, inverters will also be about 90% efficient or more, but the higher they are rated in power terms, the higher the current they draw when not actually powering anything is likely to be.

Only using a small inverter in cases like this, will generally be a relatively efficient way of getting enough "mains" AC power from your 12 volt  battery bank.

I am wondering if those who are saying otherwise have actually put meters on cheap small inverters to see how efficient they are?

Our  previous boat had no inverter capability beyond a basic 300W badged Maplin job, (cost about £25), and it was surprisingly efficient.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

I am wondering if those who are saying otherwise have actually put meters on cheap small inverters to see how efficient they are?

Measured with a meter :

1800w Sterling drawing around 4a on standby

1500w Victron drawing under 0.5a on standby.

I must admit to never having measured a 'low-wattage' inverter, never having had the need for one.

[alan_fincher]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Measured with a meter :

1800w Sterling drawing around 4a on standby

1500w Victron drawing under 0.5a on standby.

I must admit to never having measured a 'low-wattage' inverter, never having had the need for one.

They vary obviously, but I have had several cheap MSW inverters of 300W or less, (and never paid more than about ££0) for one, and none would use as much as half an amp in standby.

So actually a better bet in an application like this, maybe, than spending mega-bucks on a highly expensive Victron.

Obviously I don't know what the Lidl one will use in standby, (unless there is a spec sheet somewhere?).

[Stuart Davies]

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

They vary obviously, but I have had several cheap MSW inverters of 300W or less, (and never paid more than about ££0) for one, and none would use as much as half an amp in standby.

So actually a better bet in an application like this, maybe, than spending mega-bucks on a highly expensive Victron.

Obviously I don't know what the Lidl one will use in standby, (unless there is a spec sheet somewhere?).

why would you leave an inverter on standby? 

[ditchcrawler]

23 minutes ago, Stuart Davies said:

why would you leave an inverter on standby? 

Mine is on 24/7 as I don't know when the fridge might want to start

[Alan de Enfield]

48 minutes ago, Stuart Davies said:

why would you leave an inverter on standby? 

To minimise the quiescent current.

Could be worth a read of this thread :

 

http://canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/10547-victron-inverter-power-consumption/

Example : (from Gibbo)

The 6 Watts you refer to is if the inverter is allowed to go to sleep (idle mode). If it doesn't go into idle (ie it's on all the time) then the wasted power is more along the lines of 35 watts = 70 Ahrs per day!

And there is a slight problem with idle mode and fridges. Often the fridge will not try to fire up unless there is 230 volts available (which there won't be if the inverter is in idle mode). And the inverter won't come out of idle mode unless a load is put on it. Catch 22. Many people have to keep the inverter out of idle mode in order to run a fridge. As you can see from the above this can get rather wasteful of power.

But not all fridges do this.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[stegra]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

To minimise the quiescent current.

Do you realise what 'being on standby' is ?

perhaps he meant, as opposed to off.

[ditchcrawler]

16 minutes ago, stegra said:

perhaps he meant, as opposed to off.

That is what I thought was meant in this context.

[MtB]

On 29/03/2017 at 19:49, OliveOyl said:

Not fair, give me a pointer - which way has fewest locks?

 

I'm getting worried about you. Locks are BRILLIANT. 

When you get to Fradley go south. It's where all the best boating is. If you are worried about the audience do it at 8am on a wet Tuesday morning.

Don't come down onto the K&A where I am though, its really dull. No pretty bits, no nice pubs, no peace and quiet compared to the midlands. No spectacular scenery. Honest! 

[Horace42]

5 hours ago, OliveOyl said:

 

Thanks both, learning new things every time I come on here. If you see me out on the cut (you'll know it's me - I have put  an L plate on each side of my boat ) give me a wave.

O.

A sine wave I presume....!

[Horace42]

Here's the service manual for the inverter:

http://www.lidl-service.com/static/6388825/61667_EN_FI_SV_DA.pdf

It is a modified sine wave type - OK for some machines - but in my view a bit 'iffy' for digital things etc - TV's -DVD players etc. that worrk better with pure sine-waves.  But it might work. You must make sure the wattage of the inverter is more than the wattage of the TV. or equipment connected to it.

Don't worry about stand-by power consumption. Arrange for the TV to be switched off by using the 12v inverter input switch. So they both go off together.

And measuring amps - it is easier to do this on the 12VDC side - providing your meter has a DC amp range large enough (40amps for the Lidl inverter.)  If not then measure the amps on the 240 vac side. Beware! there are electric shock risks when trying to measure amps in the 240 vac circuit. You need to disconnect or cut wires to bare the ends to insert the meter in series to measure current.

Have a look here: (slow to load - but with static pictures)  There are loads of other sites - most with videos - that run for ten minutes and talk a lot before they tell you anything useful.

http://www.wikihow.com/Measure-Amperage

Goodnight - time for bed.

[Stuart Davies]

9 hours ago, stegra said:

perhaps he meant, as opposed to off.

I wouldn't expect Alan to understand this. It's not like he actually read the thread. 

6 hours ago, Horace42 said:

Here's the service manual for the inverter:

http://www.lidl-service.com/static/6388825/61667_EN_FI_SV_DA.pdf

It is a modified sine wave type - OK for some machines - but in my view a bit 'iffy' for digital things etc - TV's -DVD players etc. that worrk better with pure sine-waves.  But it might work. You must make sure the wattage of the inverter is more than the wattage of the TV. or equipment connected to it.

Don't worry about stand-by power consumption. Arrange for the TV to be switched off by using the 12v inverter input switch. So they both go off together.

And measuring amps - it is easier to do this on the 12VDC side - providing your meter has a DC amp range large enough (40amps for the Lidl inverter.)  If not then measure the amps on the 240 vac side. Beware! there are electric shock risks when trying to measure amps in the 240 vac circuit. You need to disconnect or cut wires to bare the ends to insert the meter in series to measure current.

Have a look here: (slow to load - but with static pictures)  There are loads of other sites - most with videos - that run for ten minutes and talk a lot before they tell you anything useful.

http://www.wikihow.com/Measure-Amperage

Goodnight - time for bed.

There is so much wrong with this post that it's best just ignored. 

[MtB]

On 30/03/2017 at 07:43, Stuart Davies said:

I wouldn't expect Alan to understand this. It's not like he actually read the thread. 

There is so much wrong with this post that it's best just ignored. 

 

It would be a courtesy to explain your comments, otherwise your post is the one better ignored. 

[alan_fincher]

10 hours ago, Stuart Davies said:

why would you leave an inverter on standby? 

I didn't suggest you would.  In this use I would probably turn it off if it wasn't needed.  I think efficiency whilst in use is the more key thing, but Alan De E replied only on the standby point.

I still think his original advice about cheap small inverters isn't sound advice.

[alan_fincher]

6 hours ago, Horace42 said:

It is a modified sine wave type - OK for some machines - but in my view a bit 'iffy' for digital things etc - TV's -DVD players etc. that worrk better with pure sine-waves.  But it might work. You must make sure the wattage of the inverter is more than the wattage of the TV. or equipment connected to it.

I don't think in general that a reasonable small modified sine wave inverter will have many issues running a 240 volt TV.

You are not going to buy a pure sine wave inverter new at anything like the price of that Lidl offering - not even close to that price.

An MSW invrter handled everything we thre at it, and nearly all those things had digital electrons in them. 

[Horace42]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It would be a courtesy to explain your comments, otherwise your post is the one better ignored. 

I agree with MTB, it would be useful to know the technical details of the 'wrong' bits, and if I agree with Stuart, I will edit my post to leave only the 'correct' bits.

The original post by OliveOyl hints at a limited knowledge of electric theory and practice but it is no skin off my nose if he follows advice to to ignores my post and gets killed playing around with 'live' 240 vac circuits. Sad of course!

[Jamboat]

We have a maplin 600w msw inverter, cost £50, runsTV, humax box, fridge freezer, twin tub washer & charges tablets & phones no problem. We do have an 1800w sterling msw but it's really only used if I feel the need to use my hair dryer

[mrsmelly]

14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Measured with a meter :

1800w Sterling drawing around 4a on standby

1500w Victron drawing under 0.5a on standby.

I must admit to never having measured a 'low-wattage' inverter, never having had the need for one.

I have owned many inverter set ups including cheap rubbish such as stirling and also 3 mastervolts ( 4 if you count the spare I carry ) and the Power master at present on this boat which I am using at this moment. Also a few cheapy small ones over the years. I monitor with the usual onboard monitoring stuff like nasa/victron and just a s a for instance a cheapy 300 watt thing I owned ( still do ) its in a box under the bed draws nearly an amp when switched on and doing nowt with a max output of 300 watts. The powermaster I am using now draws 0.3 of an amp whilst just waiting to do something it is a 1600 watt unit so the difference is huge especialy considering the capabilities of each unit. I am not a hobby boater so am not basing my useage on a few piddly weeks a year but on full time over many years. The op will have no idea on the actual power used by this unit at the supermarket unless she or someone else buys one and plugs it in and monitors it. Apart from the oft noisy perpetualy on fan on small cheap units whereas the bigger better quality bits of kit can deliver silently without so much as a buzz unless put under duress. You pays your money and takes your chance.

[Richard10002]

6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

The powermaster I am using now draws 0.3 of an amp whilst just waiting to do something it is a 1600 watt unit so the difference is huge especialy considering the capabilities of each unit.

What model of Powermaster inverter, and where can we buy one? I'm only finding the Taiwan web site with a search  

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

What model of Powermaster inverter, and where can we buy one? I'm only finding the Taiwan web site with a search  

Yes you will. Unfortunately and its a damn shame they no longer have a uk supplier. The kit is superb. My boat had it fitted from new by the owner who built the boat for his own use, he owned a large hire fleet of narrowboats so specced the boat well for himself. When he sold me the boat he told me that he could no longer get them and was having to use victron or mastervolt. Victron and mastervolt are good but this is better in the many ways it can be set up. I am hoping it doesnt go boobs up but if it does I will research the possibilty of importing one.

[Stuart Davies]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It would be a courtesy to explain your comments, otherwise your post is the one better ignored. 

fine. no skin off my nose. 

[Stuart Davies]

2 hours ago, Horace42 said:

I agree with MTB, it would be useful to know the technical details of the 'wrong' bits, and if I agree with Stuart, I will edit my post to leave only the 'correct' bits.

The original post by OliveOyl hints at a limited knowledge of electric theory and practice but it is no skin off my nose if he follows advice to to ignores my post and gets killed playing around with 'live' 240 vac circuits. Sad of course!

ok. 1. whereas msw inverters don't play nicely with transformer based power supplies, because of the harmonics, they are generally fine with the switched mode ones that drive modern electronics ( as alan says ) 2. no-one is going to measure the current on the 230V side of an inverter unless they have a specific goal and the knowledge to match and even then what's the point? no electronic device (especially a tv) uses a constant amount of power so you're as well reading the sticky label. 

3. i intensely dislike posts with categoric statements about things they know little about and even less how to explain them properly. 

[Horace42]

4 hours ago, Stuart Davies said:

ok. 1. whereas msw inverters don't play nicely with transformer based power supplies, because of the harmonics, they are generally fine with the switched mode ones that drive modern electronics ( as alan says ) 2. no-one is going to measure the current on the 230V side of an inverter unless they have a specific goal and the knowledge to match and even then what's the point? no electronic device (especially a tv) uses a constant amount of power so you're as well reading the sticky label. 

3. i intensely dislike posts with categoric statements about things they know little about and even less how to explain them properly. 

I don't mind you disliking posts. But which posts in particular do your comments refer to? Or have I been singled out for veiled attack on my integrity?

If your post is meant to direct readers attention to me I find your clause 3 - with a subjective view implying I know little about the subject and unable to explain my point,  is quite unwarranted.  A personal attack dilutes the value of what might be a valid point to your argument. 

If it was my post your are attacking - you have made no technical point that causes me to edit my post. I stand by everything I have said.

[OliveOyl]

On 29/03/2017 at 20:47, stegra said:

Yeah. If the probes from the multi-meter don't fit in very well, just lick the end to test it.

 

 

That's a joke by the way. Don't do that, it only works on three phase 415v

Norty! S'pose I was a bit dim . . . . . imagine the state my poor tongue would be in 

[OliveOyl]

On 29/03/2017 at 22:39, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm getting worried about you. Locks are BRILLIANT. 

When you get to Fradley go south. It's where all the best boating is. If you are worried about the audience do it at 8am on a wet Tuesday morning.

Don't come down onto the K&A where I am though, its really dull. No pretty bits, no nice pubs, no peace and quiet compared to the midlands. No spectacular scenery. Honest! 

OK, so south meaning downthe coventry canal, thru Huddlesford, Whittington, Hopwas . . . . . then it goes right for Brum or left for Coventry, so which way should I go then? Curdworth looks like millions of locks and I don't fancy going to Aston - might get hi jacked . Oh lord, just looked at gong left up the Conventry . . . Atherstone locks +++++++

Olive (who wants an easy intro to the cut)