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Marina Fees and when it goes wrong


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I'm inclined to go along with the comments of Mrsmelly, Jim Riley, Mike Todd, but having retired and fortunately not in need of benefit support in the sense that I need to  apply for money to live on. Although 'fortunately' is not the right word because my occupational pension fund is due to a foregoing a luxury lifestyle during working years enabling us to pay in as much as we could afford.

The theory being I would retire early at 60, buy a narrowboat and cruise the canals.

Sometimes plans things go wrong with plans. (I am 81 and still working - sort of) - As anyone with the private pension fund will know, these funds have been hit by bad interest rates, market performance and excessive management fees   - and what is left in the pot is a target for Chancellors to raid at every budget. 

But careful to leave enough to disqualify you from claiming benefits - but should you eventually run out of money (if you live too long) - you need not to worry because the State will provide for you with generous benefits - and care for you in your old age.

Is this where we came in? The tips on claiming benefits (if any for me) will come in handy - but first the boat can go! - now becoming an expensive luxury (even at my minimal mooring fees) It is moored at the end of the garden most of the year because we are physically less able to handle it - swing bridges - locks etc. Atherstone 11 in one direction, and Fradley the other.

Being optimistic my future existence is not money - it is health related - in which respect we are both in receipt of excellent NHS treatment  - my wife for sight related problems - and me for a recent mini-stroke - the medical prognosis is as good as it can be in the circumstances - and the pension fund is still able to support us.

So in the meantime, i will go on paying my taxes to help those in need - and think ourselves fortunate not to claim financial assistance.

Edited by Horace42
grammar - see red text
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19 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

I don't actualluy believe that 'they' have deliberately created a complex system solely in order to deter as many potential claimants as possible - I don't think 'they' are that clever - but it is hard to avoid the conclusion that this is exactly what has happened and that there are few in positions to change it with a will to correct the problems.

Yes, they are not that clever, they are an army of box-ticking-buck-passing jobsworths operating a complex system designed to require a layer of highly paid management to oversee the system. Sir Humphrey prevails.

 

 

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We found it was not that difficult, yes it took several (3) meetings and about 6 months to resolve but if you give up at the 1st hurdle then they have achieved their target of 'saving' money.

 

If you go prepared to argue your rights, take all necessary information (income, savings, bank statements, outgoings, PiP  etc etc) and have actually investigated what you are legally entitled to then you can work your way 'up the tree' until you get to a decision maker who realise that you are not going to go away.

 

Any award is then back-dated to the date of your claim.

 

No one will come and sort out your 'problems' its a case of get off your arse and do something yourself.

 

Edit to add - I think it was member 'smelly' who posted a series of 'how to get your claim accepted' (he was 'in the loop') - I had saved them all but now cannot find them.

Maybe someone 'in the know' can find them (it was a couple or three years ago)

 

I am surprised that they have not contacted the K&A Boating Community website as it goes into great detail and cites many examples of boaters getting their costs covered

 

If you live on your boat, and your income and savings are low, you are eligible for Housing Benefit. You can claim Housing Benefit to cover the cost of the boat licence, boat safety certificate and third-party insurance. If you have a mooring and/or if you rent your boat, Housing Benefit will cover the cost of the mooring fee and rent up to certain limits.

Statutory Instrument 2007 no 2870 Housing Benefit (Local Housing Allowance, Miscellaneous and Consequential) Amendment Regulations states at Regulation 12 that rent includes

“Rent
12(1) ….

(d) payments in respect of, or in consequence of, use and occupation of the dwelling ….

(f) mooring charges payable for a houseboat….”

In the cases below in which appeals were decided by the Social Security and Child Support Commissioners (SSCSA), the Commissioners decided that Housing Benefit was payable for the boat licence fee under (d) above, in some cases together with the mooring fee.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 18:47, Mike Todd said:

It is worse than that (depending on your point of view): for complex assessments (such as for DLA) the criteria are published but too few of the claimants are aware of this unless they seek independent advice. Advisers reasonable well trained will be aware how seemingly similar replies can lead to very different scores and hence levels of benefit. OK, so it may well be designed to weed out those whose reply to anything is that they cannot help themselves, but any system devised for relatively unskilled operation will be a blunt instrument, one that is clearly skewed towards not giving out benefits.

There is no absolute standard by which it can unarguably be agreed that above you get no benefit, below you definitely do get help. It is inevitably a relative standard - in the 70's and 80's we became increasingly as a society concerned to make sure no-one was allowed to fall through a safety net. As a result, the total bill for benefits rose substantially (although perhaps not as much as some politicians and voters would like to believe and not always for the reasons oft quoted - life expectancy is the largest factor) with the result that the banking crisis was almost designed for those with a long standing ambition to fade 'the state' out of existence. Such people set the above mentioned bar at a very low level, believing that almost anyone should be capable of supporting themselves, if only they tried hard enough.

We have not gone that far (yet!) but there is very considerable downward pressure with the result that many people who have come to assume (either as a benefit recipient or otherwise) a given level of support are now disappointed that they do not qualify. Sadly, the fact that our streets (especially those in leafy suburban Surrey) are not stuffed full of people wholly incapable of finding anywhere else to live/survive, is grist to the mill of those seeking further reductions, or at least to justify the present cuts. 

We have entered an age of 'self' and so the overall trend will be to reduce benefits downwards yet further until the whole thing collapses. The sense that I grew up with that society did mean something (not that 'there is no such thing as society') is now much maligned and taxes are seen as something to be resisted at all costs rather than a part of a way of obtaining a fairer society. Sadly even self interest does not have an effect, recognizing that even for the better off, a fairer society will make their life better as well.

I don't actualluy believe that 'they' have deliberately created a complex system solely in order to deter as many potential claimants as possible - I don't think 'they' are that clever - but it is hard to avoid the conclusion that this is exactly what has happened and that there are few in positions to change it with a will to correct the problems.

I wouldn't disagree that the system is horrendously complex, and that it lacks even the smallest element of common sense.

However, that doesn't mean that it is impossible. It does mean that those who are trying to navigate it need to secure the help of others to be on their side. Perhaps the problem here is that too few of the people who have the necessary skills to act as a friend to those in need are prepared to volunteer their time for that purpose.

Whilst I'm not in receipt of any benefits, Bev is (unable to work because of her cancer treatment), and my experience is that you need to work with the system, jumping through the hoops, and play the game to get the right outcome. All things that the benefit claimant is ill-placed to do, but others are well placed to do.

I have a (so far) unblemished record with getting the right outcome, including three cases that got to the first tier tribunal (two for Bev and one for a friend), but it is very clear that in all three cases the DWP would have won if I wasn't there to take up the case on their behalf.

The most recent example of "computer says no" is over the past few weeks.

Bev's most recent PIP award was in April 2016, and at that time they reduced her award (ridiculous as she was clearly less able in April 2016 than in April 2014), so we went through Mandatory reconsideration and to the first tier tribunal.

On 21st February, the tribunal ruled in her favour, and told the DWP to pay a higher rate. The tribunal also increased the length of the award from 2 years to 10 years.

On 27th February, the DWP sent out a 40 page form to be completed, to renew the April 2016 award. Upon phoning them, we were told; "We have 1 month to appeal the tribunal ruling, so until then we are continuing with the renewal process, please return the form by 27th March"

On 21st March, they sent TWO letters, one reminding Bev to complete the form as otherwise they would stop the PIP payment, and the other to say that they accepted the tribunal ruling, and that Bev didn't need to complete the form.

However, given the timescales here, knowing that we had 6 days from finding out whether they would accept the tribunal ruling to the deadline, we had no option but to put in many hours to complete the form in case we had to send it.

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1 hour ago, mayalld said:

On 21st March, they sent TWO letters, one reminding Bev to complete the form as otherwise they would stop the PIP payment, and the other to say that they accepted the tribunal ruling, and that Bev didn't need to complete the form.

However, given the timescales here, knowing that we had 6 days from finding out whether they would accept the tribunal ruling to the deadline, we had no option but to put in many hours to complete the form in case we had to send it.

I speak only as an on-looker of the benefits system - our grandson is partly physically and mentally handicapped, enough to make him  totally incapable of an independent existence so is fully cared for by our daughter. She is entitled to respite care - ie, a break for her - but the hoops to jump through are bewildering - she has learned which buttons to press - but even then it is far from routine and forms must be filled in.

The only annoying official forms I have to fill in nowadays are my tax returns, wWith harsh automatic penalties for not sending the forms in on time, telling me how much of my pension income I have to give them to support the needy claimants, if anything is left after they deduct what is necessary to pay the forpies of layers of managers to oversee the benefits system.

So apart from the work you had to put in, and all credit for the effort, filling the form in seemed the logical thing to do as a matter of routine albeit an annoying box ticking exercise, necessary for the next step. I guess  'No Form - No pay' would be the result, regardless of the boxes ticked. And so it should be.

My sympathies lie with the genuine claimants for which the system was designed - probably by definition those  unable to understand the rules and form filling. 

 

 

 

 

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I can't help but feel a wave of mild shock at seeing the prices of marina mooring at the beginning of this thread.
 

I thought I was in an expensive part of the country (yes different boat, different circumstances etc) being on the south coast, in the middle bit where it's the most populated and expensive. 

but over 6000 for an inland mooring? wow

that is mighty mighty expensive. Yes I know narrowboats are longer than most regular coastal boats, but they're thinner. 
I don't understand why they aren't working on square meters or some other measurement. A 50' narrowboat has a similar amount of space to a 30' motorboat. 

Yet narrowboats tend to get shoe horned in next to each other with just their fenders between or not much more than that. 

On the east coast, where I moved from last, there was a broadbeam there, on a drying mooring with electricity and water and easy short walk to car parking etc, it was only around £150 ish a month. For a live aboard who doesn't want to venture too far, it was an idyllic setting. 

 

 

 

 

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Having recently returned from years overseas, a failed marriage, no job, and financially pared to the bone, my only real choice for home was a canal boat in my 60th year. I see Britain has become a very much more selfish community and yet easy to see the rich getting richer and could not give a fig to those struggling, whilst a bigger portion of the population is falling downwards with not much hope of renewed growth. Nothing hurts those earning above £50,000 / year.  I am amazed living aboard a canal boat in a marina at tewekesbury could be that expensive. Theres no way in hell i could afford that on my £8500/yr budget. Maybe they want the poor off the canals so the rich can play boaters,  I could see me living in a tent outside grimsby by the time i,m 70.  Still, i wont be alone !

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On 31/03/2017 at 00:36, honey ryder said:

but over 6000 for an inland mooring? wow

 

But it's not 'just' an inland mooring is it? Its a residential mooring with planning permission an address, postcode and a right to live there. Rare as hens' teeth and a far nicer and desirable alternative to renting a flat for similar money.

An ordinary inland mooring for a full length boat typically costs £3-4,000. 

Besides, you have your figures wrong. The OP states the new, higher price is £5,050 for a 60ft narrowboat.

 

 

(Edit to get my own figures right!)

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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I,m on Barby Moorings near Rugby last 3 years, a no frills, still developing, non residential site, with nice folks around and close to all amenities. Its full i believe, but at less than £2000/yr for my 60', i,m more than satisfied. I dont think i,ll be cruising near the toffs at tewekesbury in a hurry, they probably have handles on their teacups ! Ha !

 

 

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My previous online mooring cost me £400 a year for a 40 foot boat, and, while I didn't live on, others did. Not a "legitimate" residential mooring and no facilities, but you don't HAVE to pay six grand a year to live on your boat. And, of course, you can always cruise. 

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To me its all very straightforward . More and more folk are living on boats . Some want to , some need to . 

The politics of why some need to is , like all politics in Britain ( not great britain ) depressingly boring , so i 'll not go there . Theres enuff of that bollocks in the VP . 

Because so many want to liveaboard the demand for official residential moorings is booming . I expect many folk aren t saying " Jesus wept ... £5000 for 60 ft of parking space " but instead are saying "'well , its still cheaper than renting some crappy flat " . Its about the maths . If its £5K instead of 8 , 9 10 K  ???? then its a saving is it not . 

Of course none of this accounts for boat purchase and maintenence etc . 

I think the scarcity of officially residential moorings combined with a broken housing rental market , Young folk struggling to make ends meet ,  more retired folk wanting boats cos theyve watched too much telly , etc has driven up demand and therefore up goes the price aswell . Up and up until " the market " decides a ceiling has been reached . 

Marina operators see an opportunity and seek to improve thier income . Its a business afterall . 

For me , its all very depressing . But this is England . 

 

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  • 2 months later...

Just to put my oar in, I once was out of work, and ill, I quickly developed some sort of agoraphobia, and got called to a medical assessment, so was in bits and barely able to answer questions, but was designated "fit to work", a complete nonsense. 

But I know folks who somehow manage to claim benefits, and get re housed, having refused to take the first place they were offered, are now in brand new housing  with all mod cons.

Its certainley not a reliable, fair, or predictable system

Edited by LadyG
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27 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Just to put my oar in, I once was out of work, and ill, I quickly developed some sort of agoraphobia, and got called to a medical assessment, so was in bits and barely able to answer questions, but was designated "fit to work", a complete nonsense. 

But I know folks who somehow manage to claim benefits, and get re housed, having refused to take the first place they were offered, are now in brand new housing  with all mod cons.

Its certainley not a reliable, fair, or predictable system

Have you posted this in the correct thread ?

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Have you posted this in the correct thread ?

probably not, sry. I thought we were discussing living on a boat, incuding living on benefits, and living on a residential mooring

And the benefit system.

Edited by LadyG
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On 2017-3-31 at 10:15, Arthur Marshall said:

My previous online mooring cost me £400 a year for a 40 foot boat, and, while I didn't live on, others did. Not a "legitimate" residential mooring and no facilities, but you don't HAVE to pay six grand a year to live on your boat. And, of course, you can always cruise. 

Well, if one is fit and healthy, and boat in good condition, correct, but that can't ever be taken for granted, ill health and changes in circumstances can change dramtically.

Its not a great idea to be resident on a non residential mooring, that  is bucking the system, suits some scroungers, but not those who pay their way.

Edited by LadyG
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On 27/03/2017 at 18:47, Mike Todd said:

I don't actualluy believe that 'they' have deliberately created a complex system solely in order to deter as many potential claimants as possible - I don't think 'they' are that clever - but it is hard to avoid the conclusion that this is exactly what has happened and that there are few in positions to change it with a will to correct the problems.

You forgot the bit about how they can divert the available funds to their buddies in ATOS and Capita.

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2 minutes ago, hounddog said:

You forgot the bit about how they can divert the available funds to their buddies in ATOS and Capita.

One result of yesterday may just be that 'they' listen to the torrent of criticism of the validity of the present process. In particular, that human expertise cannot always be replaced by algorithms - or at least not those that are deterministically defined (AI is another matter but also orders of magnitude more costly and take time - and determination -  to devise)

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38 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Well, if one is fit and healthy, and boat in good condition, correct, but that can't ever be taken for granted, ill health and changes in circumstances can change dramtically.

Its not a great idea to be resident on a non residential mooring, that  is bucking the system, suits some scroungers, but not those who pay their way.

A while back I tried to find out if there was a genuine difference between a residential and non-residential mooring, and the only thing I got told was that it was up to the owner of the mooring.  If you pay for a private offside mooring and your boat is there most of the year (as is usually the case) what difference does it make to anyone whether you spend a couple of days on it while painting the thing,  three weeks a year or 52? The council may assess you for council tax if they can be bothered but I can't see why you should define those who do so as scroungers, or as not paying one's way.

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47 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A while back I tried to find out if there was a genuine difference between a residential and non-residential mooring, and the only thing I got told was that it was up to the owner of the mooring.  If you pay for a private offside mooring and your boat is there most of the year (as is usually the case) what difference does it make to anyone whether you spend a couple of days on it while painting the thing,  three weeks a year or 52? The council may assess you for council tax if they can be bothered but I can't see why you should define those who do so as scroungers, or as not paying one's way.

If your on the boat more you'll be using the marinas facilities more.

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Its not a matter of scroungers:  essentially, a cost of £1000 pa for Counci Tax covers not only the sewerage, and the removal and disposal of rubbish,  but also the legal responsiblities which the Local Authority has to pay for.

So, a marina ONLY pays for removal of rubbish and the sewerage, and the water it uses [metered]. The costs are reatively easy to apportion.

The marina has no social responsibility,  legal or moral.

If one has lives in a house, one will pay Council Tax, and get the priviledges accorded. Street lighting, leisure facilities, transport subsidies, all sorts of subsidies.

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Its not a matter of scroungers:  essentially, a cost of £1000 pa for Counci Tax covers not only the sewerage, and the removal and disposal of rubbish,  but also the legal responsiblities which the Local Authority has to pay for.

So, a marina ONLY pays for removal of rubbish and the sewerage, and the water it uses [metered]. The costs are reatively easy to apportion.

The marina has no social responsibility,  legal or moral.

A marina (as with most commercial enterprises) will have to pay for their own waste disposal

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10 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

lA marina (as with most commercial enterprises) will have to pay for their own waste disposal

Off course they do, then they charge the boat owner, so non residents pay less than residents.

The marina has customers, the LA has responsibilities,

My point is, that the marina is a businesss, it chooses to operate,, or not. The LA has no choice.

Edited by LadyG
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3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A while back I tried to find out if there was a genuine difference between a residential and non-residential mooring, and the only thing I got told was that it was up to the owner of the mooring.  If you pay for a private offside mooring and your boat is there most of the year (as is usually the case) what difference does it make to anyone whether you spend a couple of days on it while painting the thing,  three weeks a year or 52? The council may assess you for council tax if they can be bothered but I can't see why you should define those who do so as scroungers, or as not paying one's way.

The reason they may be defined as scroungers, is that they want the benefits provided by the Government. and the Council, [which cost is considerable],  they are delibertely keepng their heads under the radar in order to avoid CT

1 minute ago, Dave Payne said:

A marina i was in had no waste facilities, you took it away, i used to do a tip run once a week with bin bags in my boot.

But then you were not supposed to be residential at that marina.

I would imagine that you were in a cheapish marina, so you cannot expect to have lots of faciities. The more expensive marinas will have more faciities.

Obviously the marina did not have pp for residential moorings.

 

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